The Serval WS from System76: A Linux Workstation Running PopOS | Hacker News Reader

The Serval WS from System76: A Linux Workstation Running PopOS

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44 pointsekianjo60 comments

Does System76 make a laptop with a high dpi screen? It seems that is table stakes these days...Seems like this is a pretty expensive laptop (portable desktop), but perhaps for gaming it's not a big deal. However, if you are programming or doing some other text intensive activity the low-dpi screens would be deal breaker.

THIS. Plenty of kinda nice Linux laptops out there, but with a terrible, terrible screen. For example, a MBP 13" has 2x resolution than this 15". This is a monumental deal breaker for the majority of people.

Have a look at the Dell offerings.

The Developer Edition of the XPS 13 is a linux-first example: https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/shop/dell-laptops-and-notebo...

(This post made from an XPS-13 7390 with a standard-HD display. The standard display is quite pleasant to use. The keyboard is wonderful compared to my crouton Chromebook of the past. The fit, finish, and operation of the device is the nicest I've used.)

Any coil whine?

I haven't noticed any particular noise from the unit. I'm in my late thirties, so if it is at the higher end of human hearing, perhaps those particular cilia are gone, but I'm happy. Placing my ear on the keyboard doesn't detect anything either.

It has been the better part of a decade since I've had a laptop with a fan, so that is a little bit different, but I only notice it under higher loads.

Yes, it exists. However it is my daily driver and I've all but tuned it out months ago.

It's really not as big a deal some make it out to be.

Oh that's funny, I have the same laptop with you!

$ neofetch --off

  sscarduzio@nash 
  --------------- 
  OS: Ubuntu 20.10 x86_64 
  Host: XPS 13 7390 2-in-1 
  Kernel: 5.8.0-40-generic 
  Uptime: 3 days, 10 hours, 34 mins 
  Packages: 3506 (dpkg), 14 (flatpak), 27 (snap) 
  Shell: bash 5.0.17 
  Resolution: 1920x1200 
  DE: GNOME 
  WM: Mutter 
  WM Theme: Yaru-dark 
  Theme: Yaru-dark [GTK2/3] 
  Icons: Yaru [GTK2/3] 
  Terminal: gnome-terminal 
  CPU: Intel i7-1065G7 (8) @ 3.900GHz 
  GPU: Intel Iris Plus Graphics G7 
  Memory: 7620MiB / 15781MiB

I use fractional scaling hidpi (1.3x) and no issues at all. But coming from a 2015 MBP 13" retina display, I can definitely tell the difference, and the MBP was much nicer to look at.

I opted fro the FHD+ instead of the 4K screen in my Dell for two reasons:

- 4K is *WAY* beyond Retina, which is already very dense for me.

- I was afraid the 4K would drain the battery (especially on Linux)

I really hope Dell will offer a sane ~3K display (i.e. Retina levels) in the future and remove the burden of choice for their customers (at least where it's not needed).

Before you ask: no coil whine for me, but the thin rubber feet peeled off after exactly one year. This pissed me off on a £2K laptop.

Is there much difference when looking at text on an 13" screen between 1080p and 2160p ? assuming both are high quality screens.

Yes there is! Because in the MBP 13" at 2160p I could keep 2x scaling, which is much better than this 1.3x/1.5x fractional scaling I have to keep in the Dell XPS 13".

Do you like smooth or blocky text?

Assuming you have good eyes, twice the DPI means you can have your text almost-but-not-quite twice as small without losing readability. Which is effectively the same as giving you almost-but-not-quite twice the screen real-estate.

I am typing this on a Dell XPS 15 w/ a 4K OLED running Gentoo .

But more to your point, yes, there are few laptops with good screens that have awesome Linux compatibility. They exist, certainly, but there are not too many of them.

I have to ask, what compelled you to use Gentoo as your daily driver? I haven’t touched Gentoo in many years, but it was not something I would ever consider as a desktop distribution based off that experience. Has something changed?

To be honest, not really.

Where I work we run Gentoo on all our servers because we have many changes across the Linux stack and deal with custom, internal hardware. We have build profiles for various system configurations that are entirely reproducible on a binary level. It made sense since we have many similar or identical systems globally and need access to the latest kernel versions.

I installed it on all my personal systems to force myself to learn how to use it. I ran Arch on everything previously. Then I went and did something stupid - I fell in love with Gentoo's package management system. As someone who writes a lot of code on my own time as well, I found Gentoo's package manager (portage) to be the least headache inducing of all the ones I'd used (deb, rpm, PKGBUILD). This is my own subjective opinion obviously.

> This is a monumental deal breaker for the majority of people.

I highly doubt that a laptop not supporting >1080p on the monitor is considered a 'monumental deal breaker for the majority of people'.

1080p is just fine for laptops.

the screen on the Serval WS is 144hz, as well, which is much higher refresh-rate than most HiDpi displays.

I write text documents for a living. 4k at 60hz is what I need and it works perfectly from Ubuntu Mate on a Dell laptop. I'd never go back to 1080.

i write code for a living, so I'm in a similar boat. all my screens are 1080p and I don't have any problems.

my point was that this is actually not a deal breaker for most users. just a deal breaker for some users. I would venture to say they are even in the minority.

Right, we can do without a lot of nice features. For example, I could do without a modern editor, maybe get by with gedit or something similar. But I don't... the value I get from them is much greater than the money spent.

My laptop display upgrade was maybe $200 five years ago. It has payed that back in clarity (and the amount of code I can see at once) every single day since.

Agreed, would love a 4k screen. Currently have that on a Dell XPS running Linux and don't want to go back to 1080.

When programming I personally connect my laptop to a larger monitor with better resolution. Not sure what is the point of 1440p or more on a 15 inch screen, because then you end up scaling everything 2x or more to be readable again.

Which results in crisper better defined text.

The Bonobo WS is available with a 4K 17" screen.

I wanted system76 but ended up with a xps17 for this reason

As an owner of a HiDPI laptop, I'm here to tell you that if you want to connect it to an external monitor, you will be disappointed in Linux. For a laptop-monitor combination in Linux, standard resolution is absolutely the way to go.

This isn't a rant. Mad, mad respect for Linux here, and longtime Linux user.

KDE only offers a single scaling factor, so you must scale the laptop and the external screens identically. That means all at 2:1, or 1.5:1, or what have you -- this means one of your screens will be scaled improperly (too fine or too large). Gnome does the same, I believe. I have heard Pop_OS can scale monitors differently but didn't try it.

Why not change the resolution on the laptop? Both my laptop and monitor have the same screen resolution, but I have configured Cinnamon to set the laptop display to only 1920x1080 when the external monitor is attached so its more readable at a distance. When unplugging hdmi the laptop display switches back to full resolution automatically.

Nope, GNOME actually supports mixed scaling with Wayland and works just fine on my Dell XPS 13. I regularly connect a normal DPI external monitor and things scale just fine across both HiDPI internal and normal DPI external screen.

My understanding (not based in any experience, though I hope to get some this year) is that this is a limitation of X11, but that Wayland properly supports per-screen scaling (so long as the compositor does).

Get them the same resolution. I have a Dell laptop with Ubuntu Mate and two 4k screens. It has been running wonderfully for at least five years. I'd never go back to 1080.

The following Linux distributions support different scaling factors on different displays by default: Pop!_OS, Ubuntu (and GNOME-based derivatives), Linux Mint. Arch Linux, Manjaro, and all distributions using GNOME + Wayland can also enable mixed scaling with a quick setting change.

Pop!_OS (developed by System76) created its own HiDPI daemon to handle HiDPI and LoDPI displays on X11 at the same time:

https://github.com/pop-os/hidpi-daemon

https://blog.system76.com/post/174414833678/all-about-the-hi...

It is preinstalled on all System76 computers and enabled by default.

Ubuntu's fork of the Mutter display manager (used by its fork of GNOME) includes a patch to handle different display resolutions for HiDPI and LoDPI displays on X11:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mutter/+bug/182085...

Ubuntu and all of its GNOME-based derivatives include this patch, unless it is specifically excluded by the maintainers.

Linux Mint implemented fractional display scaling, with different settings for each display, in Cinnamon 4.6:

https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3858

Arch Linux and Manjaro users can also choose Cinnamon as the desktop environment for the same features.

If you are using a GNOME on X11 on Manjaro, you can install the mutter-x11-scaling package to replace Mutter with a version that includes Ubuntu's changes:

https://gitlab.manjaro.org/packages/extra/mutter-x11-scaling...

https://github.com/puxplaying/mutter-x11-scaling

Finally, if you are using GNOME on Wayland, mixed scaling is already supported. To enable fractional scaling, activate the "scale-monitor-framebuffer" setting:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/HiDPI#GNOME

On Wayland, scaled applications that do not use GTK 3+ or Qt 5+ may appear blurry. This affects all Electron applications. X11 does not have the same issue, but Wayland is generally smoother and more stable than X11.

The Adder WS has a 4K OLED display, although it's temporarily sold out:

https://system76.com/laptops/adder

The Bonobo WS has a 4K display option at a higher price point:

https://system76.com/laptops/bonobo

They do! I have a Galago Pro from 2017ish I got from System76. It's a 13" form factor with a 3200x1800 display, which I find quite detailed.

I'll echo the frustrations of other folk in the thread when using the device with an external monitor; at the time, the DPI scaling was a mess between the internal display and the external 4k I used for programming. It has been a couple years since I've tried that setup, so it's possible it's improved since then.

I will say I've enjoyed the roadmap System76 has had for PopOS, including their work on HiDPI quality-of-life improvements.

> As far as financing is concerned, you’ll pay a monthly fee. For the Serval, right now you can pay as little as $113 per month for 18 months, with 11.99% APR. You’ll need to fill in a credit application through Klarna in order to do so.

Is this a review or an advertisement?

The article's only as interesting as it's topic.

I own this laptop, it’s awesome. The only complaint I have is that the battery really functions more as a UPS. The System76 support is really top notch too.

I got this laptop about a month ago. My two complaints are 1) the fan gets surprisingly loud, sometimes for no reason 2) the webcam is very bad (720p 7FPS?!)

I will say I'm impressed that the fan can't be picked up by the mic, I wonder if System76 did any custom work there. I wear cupped headphones so I don't hear it much myself. Did you have the fan problem though, just curious? Maybe I can decrease the fan speed in the BIOS...

The fan isn’t any worse than compiling code on a MacBook Pro for me so I don’t really mind, it’s just something I accept with the form factor of the laptop. Also, it’s a Ryzen desktop CPU in a laptop that doesn’t throttle, so my expectations for the fan being quiet were low.

I use an external webcam with an external monitor most of the time.

This machine doesn't make much use of it's enormous size for connectivity;

It has only 4 USB ports which are spread across 3 sides of the computer; 2 are USB 3.2 Gen 2 Type A, 1 is a USB 3.2 Gen 2 Type C, 1 is a USB 2.0 - What is the purpose of a USB2.0 port on a new computer in 2021?

I'm quite concerned that this machine has no 20Gb USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 Ports or no 2.5Gb Ethernet (or ideally 10Gb Ethernet). Thunderbolt ports would be ideal but their absence makes sense given it's an AMD based system.

I feel that a year or two down the line, once USB4 begins to make headway, this machine is going to feel quite limited.

P.S. - I truly detest the USB 3.* naming convention - "USB 3.2 Gen 2x2 - Type C connector", "USB 3.2 Gen 2" and "USB 3.2 Gen 1" seem explicitly designed to confuse non-technical people, hell, it's hard enough for technical people too.

> What is the purpose of a USB2.0 port on a new computer in 2021?

Volume cost savings, presumably. I guess that's the port you use for input devices since they don't really require high bandwidth connections...

Not so much a laptop as a desktop machine you can fold and put away when you're done with it.

Yeah, it's in the category of "portable desktops". Still useful even if you only use it at home. Moving a desktop is a lot of work, moving this kind of machine from one room to another is easy.

Is it sturdy? I have an old Dell that’s gone 6+ years

I can't really say, as I've only had mine for a few months. No problems, but the hinge makes me nervous every time. It doesn't bend very far back, and it doesn't feel like it would take much to snap. My ThinkPad P50's more than 180 degrees has really spoiled me.

Sure, it's easy to imagine--especially now--someone wanting a full-powered machine but not having the space for a big box/monitor combo.

Never understood this company. Lenovo and Dell sell computers with Ubuntu or Fedora pre-installed, that have been tested and are guaranteed to be fully compatible with Linux. Why would you go with System76, which is selling rebranded Clevo laptops with a markup, and PopOS, which is an Ubuntu derivative?

They ship with coreboot, right? Could be for the free software + firmware

That's Librem.

Honestly I believe at this point it's partially inertia and brand recognition. In the past, when Linux support was more hit-or-miss, and the likes of Dell and Lenovo had no linux support, I think it made more sense.

More charitably, they do some work on custom firmware, and according to themselves, "work with" Clevo on making hardware decisions. What exactly that means seems vague to me, but again, charitably, System76+Clevo are at least trying to avoid problematic hardware, while Dell and Lenovo ... don't so much?

> Lenovo

Does Lenovo have something with Ryzen + Nvidia discrete GPU at the moment, with ThinkPad build quality?

> Never understood this company. Lenovo and Dell sell computers with Ubuntu or Fedora pre-installed, that have been tested and are guaranteed to be fully compatible with Linux.

This hasn't always been the case. System76 has been around since 2005.

> Why would you go with System76, which is selling rebranded Clevo laptops with a markup, and PopOS, which is an Ubuntu derivative?

To support a company whose entire purpose is to provide hardware running Linux, as opposed to one which does it as a small niche within their much larger Windows-based business.

Many laptops are rebranded from ODMs. PopOS has some nice touches over Ubuntu. Plus you get official, dedicated support.

It comes with a premium because they're a small OEM, but it's not THAT bad of a deal.

1) To support a linux-first vendor as oppose to multibillion dollar manufacturers throwing the community bones. 2) Commitment to open source and privacy, with open source firmware, their attempts to counteract Intel ME, etc. 3) Gaming and 3D ready laptops 4) Integration with their own distro 5) Actual professional customer support for linux (how capable or even human would Dell and Lenovo’s customer support be for their linux computers?)

I actually can’t think of a good reason outside of price to not get a computer from a linux first vendor like S76.

I've had the best Dells and Lenovo's for Linux and it's still not as good as my System76 integration. With my 76, I just use it and upgrade it, with the others I always have little things that don't quite work unless I cast a magic spell and turn around 4 times.

100 percent of my 76 laptop works, not just 99 percent like the others.

MNT Reform is the only "Linux laptop" I'm aware of that is designed from scratch and isn't based on common OEM hardware. I'm sure System76 offers value to their customers though. I'm personally not too interested in their offerings but it's good to see they're still around. And growing, it appears from a distance.

I recently tried to buy a System76 laptop and unfortunately had a terrible experience. It was massively delayed and they weren't transparent at all about how long it was going to be delayed. I wound up going with a Juno Computers laptop instead and it's been great so far.

That photo sure is misleading. I thought it was a pocket laptop.

As a former user of System76 laptops: they are not very lightweight and the keyboards are not very durable. You better get a bag with wheels if you plan on having one.

Nowadays they have a number of normal weight models. My 2019 darter weights 1.6kg, and it looks like the new lemur/galago are 1.1 and 1.41kg respectively.

Not ultralight but fairly average.

How many inches? Mine was 17" and it wasn't very comfortable to carry it around.

On the keyboard matter: I got a laptop based on the Clevo W550SU-1 in mid-2014 (not from System76, but the same hardware platform); its keyboard was fair when new, decidedly spongy after one year, and very terrible after two (if typing casually, about a third of the time Space wouldn’t activate, and a few of the most regularly-used letters would sometimes not activate either—the workaround is to press the keys more deliberately). I certainly hope they’ve completely redone the keyboards mechanism since then.

Yes. In my case many keys stopped working and I had to use a separate keyboard instead.

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