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Comment by jb1991 | Hacker News Reader

jb1991

"The opportunity is to equip brick and mortar stores to compete with Amazon and Alibaba — and be better than them.”

This is fantastic. It makes sense -- get the convenience of ordering online, but with the tremendously better quality of buying from a local and known source, while also supporting your local economy and peers. I try everything I can to avoid Amazon, as there is just so much garbage, counterfeit, scammed reviews, and just sheer anti-competitive crap that it's a real sore in our world.

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The big issue for me is delivery times. When I order something the website claims is "in stock", it often takes weeks to be delivered. Clearly they don't have the item in stock, but are backordering it from somewhere else (usually Germany). That sucks so much. I am perfectly capable of ordering from Germany myself, and it is much faster than ordering from these faux "in stock" websites.

Not Amazon, though. They get it. Quick delivery is key.

The problem here for Wolt is to get an accurate (and I mean _accurate_) picture of what they can actually deliver very quickly. Most brick & mortar stores don't have the ERP to support that. They have no computer system that correctly tracks what items they actually have on their shelves. It's crazy, but it's true.

P.S. The above may be wildly different in different locales. I'm in Finland, where Wolt was conceived. I sometimes order lunch from Wolt but I have serious reservations they can pull this off with items that are back-ordered through a lengthy supply chain.

It's funny, in Sweden I've been having the opposite experience. Local stores almost always specify if they have stock accurately and what the lead times are if not, and delivery is usually as quick as specified.

Amazon usually comes in a bit cheaper but comes from Germany or the UK. Since brexit everything from the UK is taking weeks.

Yeah, I like to order from Sweden. It's usually faster to ship stuff from Sweden to Finland than ordering from a Finnish faux "in stock" webshop :)

I probably shouldn't comment, as I've never used any of these delivery services .. but that said I've always been pretty patient when it comes to online-ordering.

There are a lot of things I could go to a store to buy if I needed them "immediately". If I can way a week or two then online ordering is just something I do because it is either very easy to do, or a lot cheaper.

Right now I'm waiting on the delivery of some NE555 timer chips, so I can build a clock circuit to drive a Z80. Since I'm in no immediate rush I just ordered a bunch from aliexpress, I have no doubt they'll turn up in six weeks.

(I did look at how much it would cost to buy a single 555 locally, and found a couple of online sites such as mouser.fi, and partco.fi, but they were quoting €10-20 for delivery which was just not something I was going to pay, even if the delivery would have been speedy.)

Also last week I got nostalgic for when I used to have the complete collection of Discworld books, so I ordered half of them online, I was given a delivery estimate of a week which is perfectly fine, I've no shortage of books to read here in the meantime.

For what it’s worth Farnell is by far the most reliable place for electronics components I’ve found in the EU. Next business day delivery for 5 EUR from Western Europe to Estonia even if you order in the afternoon. Haven’t been disappointed yet.

That's a good tip, thanks!

I got started with arduino/esp8266 devices a couple of years ago, and mostly then it would have been a case of ordering from China and waiting.

It is only recently that I've started needing specific IC pieces to complete an ongoing project, and stalling for 4-8 weeks has become too much of a pain. So I'm not so familiar with component sources, beyond just quick searches!

I know some computer stores that have that. I can check on the website if a product is anywhere nearby, go for a walk and buy it.

Oh, and IKEA.

Wolt has no support for anything other than delivering immediately. So if the shop lists an item they do not actually have, they have to reject the order.

Well, that's not exactly correct. You can create a scheduled order up to a week in advance.

Yes, but that is entirely customer-driven, and just places the order in a queue to start at a point chosen by the system so that it will be delivered at the promised time. Once the order is initiated, it will be delivered immediately, there is no logistical system in place to do anything else.

There may be opportunities in creating simplified ERPs for SMBs.

In fact, if they want to compete, it will be necessary to adopt one for the reasons you point out.

IMO, The platform must be the ERP system, with the local business simply acting as a logistics node in the network (storage, shipping).

Is there none? I appreciate a local hardware store may not need SAP but isn't there anything small scale that'd link up to POS or website?

Biggest hurdle is finding stuff outside of Amazon. People are used to it and Google results are gamed from every possible angle. Even searching for [item] made in [country] yielded nothing for me, because the SEO gap is too huge.

Turns out attracting massive traffic and then acting as a platform works all too well.

So 1. make another platform specifically for off Amazon stuff or 2. specialize for SEO for small companies.

The consolidation of the Web into FAANG needs to end.

Search is not as reliable anymore because everything is locked up in an app, walled garden or javascript monstrosity now.

The major players like it that way and marketing/business/finance people seem to only care about the data you get with the app now, though no one but large big data third parties knows what to actually do with it. This movement has worked so hard to commoditize technology/data that only major players can exist, everyone else just sharecropping on platforms and algorithms that they can no longer compete with.

For many companies, web is now an afterthought, de-prioritized. A bit like audio/sound in games, a major part of a product but not enough time is given to it.

We lost touch with why the web was amazing, at the root it was basic text/markup, hypertext protocols, that anyone or any company could compete on, and it was searchable outside the walls. That land has now been claimed by bigger owners, locked down, and able to be leased.

It is a whole new kind of thing to sit in your house, look at something you want, place the order, and then have it in your hands in 45 minutes.

I did my first online grocery order in the middle of pandemic. I needed to wait to 6 days :D

My parents live in northern New Jersey, about an hour away from NYC. For the first two months of the pandemic, it was impossible to get them food delivery. The wait times were exactly that a week or longer. Now it's fine. But it was so frustrating at it first.

Then hopefully suffer more than 45 minutes of guilt for the externalities of your decision, including the likely fact that your delivery person is not making a living wage. Why not walk to your neighborhood store and buy something from a fellow citizens in your own community? Bonus points if you manage to find a replacement for an import made by a local company.

Wolt does pay couriers decently, and carbon compensates deliveries. And the order comes from local shops.

So do you think in Finland 13-14e hourly charge rate for self-employed entrepreneur is a decent rate?

What is your source for this rate? Based on limited knowledge (e.g., the Finnish YouTuber who tried working as Wolt courier for a couple of days, and the recent articles about the courier who is trying to earn 8000e in January delivering with Wolt), it seems that the rate _when actually making deliveries_ is higher. I might be willing to accept that this quoted figure is the hourly rate when the courier is technically available for deliveries but not getting them all the time. So, the hourly rate would go up if more people made delivery orders, because there would be less downtime… Of course nothing prevents the self-employed couriers from doing other work in the meantime, e.g., delivering for another company or working on some personal project (studying comes to mind as a thing that can be done during downtime).

Now, admittedly if they were employees, they would be paid by the hour whether there were orders or not, but then both their salary and the number of couriers on duty would have to be adjusted accordingly, which means the majority of couriers would lose this job… Not a simple matter, IMO, I think there is a gap in legislation when it comes to this type of work.

For instance from this story ” Woltin mukaan Woltin kaikkien lähettien keskimääräinen laskutus on nykyään nykyään 13,44 euroa tunnilta.” (Source: https://www.is.fi/taloussanomat/art-2000006312759.html)

Most on these ”can earn so many thousands per month” seem to follow same formula 1) Assumes that somebody works >12h per day, 6-7 days per week and 2) Mixes salary and self-employed hourly rate

Wolt couriers in Israel make 3-4 times the minimum wage when all is said and done.

I'm not doubting you but if you have a source for this (Hebrew is fine) I'd appreciate it. This topic has come up in conversation before and I'd like some more info on this.

Maybe this: https://www.meshekil.com/ReadNews/hMLbbgJ2C-%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%...

I would say any wage is better than no wage at all, which is what delivery people make if there are no deliveries.

Chances are that you spend more time than that feeling resentful that the big bad strangers on the internet don’t feel even a pang of shame just because you told them to.

I've got same day delivery on certain items on some sites and while it's a nice novelty, I've found it's unnecessary. I'm quite happy (content even) to wait 2 days, as long as it is actually 2 days, and not 1-5 days depending on the position of the moon.

My supermarket offers 4 hour delivery windows that you book about a week in advance, and it's perfect (other than the occasional dodgy swap or missing item). I can work with that. But amazon (for example) offers same/next day delivery, and I'd estimate maybe 10% of my orders are late. That doesn't work if I'm relying on them for food

Check out Dunzo.com

Convenience? Where I live, you have to stay at home all day in order to have the luck of a successful DHL delivery.

Then DHL sometimes does not ring, so you have to stay home a second day. Then the package is delivered to the post office, where you have to stand in line with 50 people to collect it, which takes an hour.

I only order online when I have to.

Common problem here as well.

Wonder if it would be difficult to provide more detailed estimate for the delivery (through app) based on couriers location and list of pending deliveries.

For DHL orders you can sign the signature in advance... It's towards the bottom of a page when viewing a tracking number.

> Then DHL sometimes does not ring

Is that a worldwide policy they have? They do the same thing over here on 2/3 deliveries.

This is a real cause of worry for Amazon's retail business that has so much riding on its warehouse and logistics investments. In India, as hard as it is, Swiggy has started to turn the screws on the existing e-commerce model with Genie: https://medium.com/swiggydesign/swiggy-genie-the-design-stor...

If you can get it, that sounds great. But competing with Amazon's scale sounds like a horrendously difficult problem.

But yes, filtering through the cruft and garbage on Amazon seems to get worse every year, which opens up an opportunity for more traditional retailers that don't have the same problem with a million variations on the same thing by shady companies taking up search results space.

They only need to win over the customers. There is a growing crowd on HN who refuse to buy from Amazon. I spread the love in the community (family, friends, etc.) and sooner or later Amazon is going to feel the lost of trust. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but if the unhappy customers reach a critical mess it will be fast.

“It can take years to create trust and only a day to lose it.”

>There is a growing crowd on HN who refuse to buy from Amazon.

HN is, from what I can tell, not necessarily the best bellwether for 'human actions taken'. It's sort of a small, insulated bubble. Just a heads up.

The biggest problem is that, for many folks, there is no longer such a thing as 'local' store to buy things they need. Everything is a chain - wal-mart, dollar general, those sorts of places. So, to them, what's the difference between amazon and faceless corporation (b)?

>HN is, from what I can tell, not necessarily the best bellwether for 'human actions taken'. It's sort of a small, insulated bubble. Just a heads up.

It does however seem to be a small, insulated bubble with better than average economy.

Don't you get free deliveries up the wazoo with Amazon if you have Prime? I don't really know how one can compete with that.

> I don't really know how one can compete with that

I’ll pay for delivery if I can be sure it’s coming from the manufacturer. Not only is counterfeit risk minimised; the product’s freshness is also maximised.

Prime isn’t free. They charge a monthly fee for it.

I see the fee as largely a formality, you pay it then you think "might as well order from them since I paid for the membership". Then you have thier video streaming, subscribe and save, etc. It seems to pay for itself but it really increases the chance we'll order from Amazon over a third party (e.g. in Canada, Walmart is really a good alternative as long as you only by "sold as shipped by Walmart" items, but it is rarely the first place I go).

Which is why I don’t pay for prime.

I've wondered why UPS, USPS, and FedEx (and others) haven't tried to start their own prime-type programs. Charge me an annual or monthly fee and then any delivery to me from any participating retailer is free.

Because they don't all have a web services branch to print money and prop up the cost of free delivery?

I'm not sure of that is true but that's my guess.

I've been a Prime member since it came out, but lately it's just been awful. Packages will say "delivered" but then either the photo is of someone else's porch or there just isn't a photo. I have their Ring doorbell and I offer to show them no events were triggered. They always say "oh, we must have marked it delivered too early, please wait 48 hours". Then, 48 hours later they offer to refund me and I have to start over. I've asked if they can please only deliver via UPS but they say that's not an option.

I am switching over the local stores as much as I can. Amazon took a turn for the much worse 5 years ago and it continues going down this spiral every year.

Few highlights:

- fake item inventory: 50% chance of getting what you ordered vs some fake knockoff

- delivery hell: stolen items (i have personally watched a delivery driver steal my package), delivered items that never arrived (probably falls into the previous category but i have no proof), failed delivery for addresses that worked for 5+ years before

- item arriving from different country that I made the purchase, this is funny in Europe, UK has left the EU on 1st of January so there is import customs to pay on items. I order and item from Germany and Amazon send me from the UK because it is 1 cent cheaper for them. I have to pay the same amount of customs + tax that the amount of the purchase. After some back and fort they reimburse.

So if there is a startup that allows me to order from a local store, I could not care less how much more expensive it is than on Amazon, I am going for it. I hope they succeed.

> stolen items (i have personally watched a delivery driver steal my package)

Did he pick up some other package by your door? Or how do you know he stole the package he was delivering.

It's not unknown to have a driver snap the confirmation and then take the package. Anyone who does this will eventually get fired but it seems to happen. Personally, I've never had an issue with this but there's doorbell camera evidence of it, etc. I think people following the vans and stealing packages is way more common (orders of magnitude).

Guy came in his turck, got a bunch of packages in his hands when exited the vehicle, dropped off some of the packages, he had one package in his hand when got back and left. Few minutes later the notification came that my package was delivered. I was trying to understand who is stealing my packages, maybe neighbours or somebody breaking in after the delivery guys leaves. This was in a gated community. Finally I understood it was the driver. I called amazon about it but nothing happened. They just refunded me and did not do anything about it. Financially this is "optimal" for them (as least in the short run). I have never ordered anything to that address anymore and I started to use the company address in the city in a building that has 24 hour staff.

> 50% chance of getting what you ordered vs some fake knockoff

I don't think I've ever received a counterfeit item from Amazon and I get something from there at least once a week.

Just curious: assuming it's not food, what kinds of things you need at least weekly? I thought at the start of this work-from-home that it'll at least make parcel receiving much easier. But turns out I already have almost everything I need or want so I get a delivery maybe every second month or so.

I recently got into 3d printing, so it's a lot of stuff related to that lately. Before that I was learning how to sew so it was a sewing machine and stuff for that. I've been into light woodworking projects and metalwork as well and so there's often something coming for my workshop - Japanese saws, various bits of hardware, a tap and die set, welder, and so on. There's a constant flow of books and video games for myself and my kids.

Aside from hobbies I order stuff for my dog (medicated shampoos, supplements, dog treats) and lots of household stuff (air and water filters, light bulbs, lawn mower, irrigation system parts, plumbing and electrical parts).

For personal goods I get some clothing (shoes and socks), office supplies, batteries, vitamins, etc...

My car battery seems to be dying so today I'll ordered a charger that has a repair mode and if that doesn't work well enough I'll probably order a new car battery from them.

My purchases basically fall into three buckets. Grocery store items, clothing, and everything else is Amazon.

Fair enough, frequent orders do make sense with these hobbies and pets. I never enjoyed the physical maker type of activities that much myself so my needs are pretty well digitally contained.

Most patrons of a store are not the store owners’ peers.

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