2. 5nm in 2024 is at least 4 years / 2 Node behind leading edge. Given the complexity with the project I actually expect HVM happens in 2025. They will of course produce something in 2024 just to make headlines, but HVM always start later. ( The public wouldn't know or care anyway )
3. This means TSMC in Taiwan is still as important it was, and arguably more so in 2024. From Geopolitics prospective this Fab doesn't change a thing.
Taiwan is too close to China, that is a reality. Plus, modern chipmaking is an incredible sophisticated business, for example, you need huge amount of electricity and raw materials imported overseas to sustain the fab. When the war breaks, all of that would end.
Their effort should be spent on to prevent the war from happening in the first place, that is the only way to 'win' the war.
I agree that war should be avoided and "the only way to win is not to play"!
However, I think we should also be considering globally how we can act more like Holons [1] for greater resilience from all types of threats to global interdependence. We want loosely coupled systems, we should want loosely coupled government too!
I would bet in all their war-games, very few strats have the "TSMC destroyed" scenario checked.
I think you underestimate how violently the US will respond to something like that. It honestly would the greatest existential threat to the US since WW2. Chips are a decent amount more important(at the moment) than oil and look at the crazy shit the US did for that.
What are you really saying when you say the US did "crazy shit" [for oil]?
Taiwan being invaded by China is a signal of the end of US hegemony around the world.
It'll only loudly signal an end to US hegemony in Asia (which has already happened de facto). That is inevitable regardless of a Taiwan invasion and everyone knows it at this point. China has gained immense positioning during the pandemic while all other major nations have lost. There was never a scenario where the US could retain its former dominance in Asia as China arrived at being a full-fledged superpower (they'll be there militarily this decade). US hegemony, to the extent it exists, will remain intact elsewhere for decades after it lost that status in Asia. US hegemony isn't based on signals and perception, it's based on military force projection and whether there are equal counters to that in a given region. China is very close to powerful enough to counter the US military in the Asia region (not just near its borders) and that determines the hegemony regardless of whether China goes into Taiwan anytime soon. Anyone thinking the US still retains hegemony in Asia is most likely fooling themselves at this point.
Both countries rely on imported oil. The most likely cause of a war between them is an oil shortage, giving nations an incentive to use their navies to capture oil tankers. The use of navies to capture cargoes of national importance was common for centuries till end of WWII. It ceased after WWII because of US naval dominance combined with the use of free trade as a part of US strategy in the cold war, but of course the cold war is over; so the US, which has been and remains the power least reliant on international trade, could choose not to spill the blood of US sailors to keep the sea lanes open to all.
Japan knows this and has been building a navy that can operate outside the South China sea and in the Indian ocean, so that it can escort oil tankers from the Persian Gulf to Japan. China's navy in contrast cannot operate outside the South China sea, he says.
Friedman says that aircraft carriers benefit a country only if it has admirals that know how to use them and points out that Japan's admirals have been trained by admirals trained by admirals that actually used aircraft carriers in a major war.
The main purpose of the People's Liberation Army is to put down a rebellion by Chinese citizens. The primary goal and concern of the rulers of China beyond their Party's remaining in power is to prevent the country from splitting apart. For most of the 2500-year history of China, it has been divided into multiple polities, and outside powers have played the pieces off against each other.
The US just lost a war against the Taliban, a war it spent many trillions of dollars on, so I doubt the US military worries about whether a loss in a future conflict would signal an end of US hegemony.
Imagine if the situation is missile defense, both the missile and the defense systems are computerized and not only the milliseconds but also the microseconds are the difference between a hit and a stopped missile. Whoever had the newest fab node would have a notable advantage in being able to push their system harder. It could be better ML in missile to lock on and dodge, vs the defense system predicting paths as fast as possible with as low latency as possible to defend a ship or similar asset.
Its asymmetric in the example of course, but both sides would be doing both shooting and defending.
Have a look at what type of microchips are used in “cutting edge” military equipment like fighter jets. They are often decade olds. More speed is simply not important enough.
But if we were in desperate times, I think the limits would matter and fab tech would be an important strategic asset for what it enables. The nature of it is that its easier to attack, but we hopefully have something to defend.
Intrinsically larger process nodes are better for analog and have uses even as new fabs come along. In 7nm your analog signals are not treated very nicely, but these are important for sensors. Also power electronics are not really on the newest nodes either. The microchips are old because they get the job done and I don’t think we feel so threatened to push the limits.
Nevermind the nation probably has more than 1 of such old fabs, so it can't be technologically decapitated by destroying a single precious 5nm fab it has.
The best you could do is go back to making older systems for which the factories may not exist anymore, or design and build new systems using the old CPU tech and new everything else. Both options would impose a severe economic and military cost and take years to implement.
It doesn't matter that 5nm chips aren't used in military hardware today. You can bet military hardware is being designed now that will use 5nm chips. Therefore access to that production capacity is strategic.
No, they're ahead because they mastered EUV lithography. It's not just another shrink, it requires a lot of changes and they all have to work and play nice together. The fact that Intel can't seem to get it right, and global foundries voluntarily stopped short is very telling.
Having cleared the hurdles TSMC is rapidly going through a bunch of new nodes: 7,6,5,3,2.
ie. how many intel and TSMC bought and is using now
TMSC instead decided to try EUV. That was a risky bet. But then ASML from The Netherlands managed to solve the problem of EUV intensity and Intel had found that they just could not manage to push traditional lithography further.
Seems pretty far fetched considering today’s economic and political conditions though.
Nothing wrong with considering that scenario, but as for a national referendum resulting in a peaceful unification? Chances are basically zero.
There is no reintegration of Taiwan into the PRC, since it has indeed never been part of it.
But the term 'Chinese reunification' is the correct one, because China has indeed split over "unfinished" business in 1949.
In any case, IMHO this narrative is moot when discussing peaceful reunification because I can only see this having a chance of happening after the mainland has transformed into a democracy, which would probably mean that it would not be the 'PRC' anymore.
Taiwan was seized from China in 1895, and given back in 1945. It has remained 'China' ever since, just not part of the PRC. The people are ethnic Chinese and in fact quite a few people fled the communist forces on the mainland by moving to Taiwan, including the government itself. One example being the founder of TSMC. Another example, Foxconn's founder was born in Taiwan right after his parents fled from the mainland.
I find the comparison with Korea and Vietnam factually incorrect and rather disingenuous, irrespective of what the people of Taiwan might think of reunification.
It would be insanity for the US to declare war on China (and they know that), and I am always puzzled (and slightly worried) by the number of American commenters who seem to think that the US can 'just' attack China.
Remember, there was no tick-tock cycle before Intel invented the 2 year cadence back in ~2008. It was a business strategy to push alternate cycles of architecture changes and process node changes. It was conceived and invented by Intel. The point is that the cadence the entire industry judges itself was coined by the leader of the industry at the time. Now, the leader's podium position isn't at the top.
But global dynamics seem very interesting currently. Big tech influence on political issues and wars have been big for some time but is becoming very visible now. Taiwan would be a very different country without TSMC. Heavily optimized for cost and speed and less on reliability supply chains and mining industries.
It seems hopeful to me that future wars will mostly be cyber and economical, it could mean less people suffering but it's not granted.
There was no Tick Tock then, but there was Moore's law. Intel unable to improve their node and manufacturing has nothing to do with Tick Tock cycles.
>There is no guarantee that TSMC might get stuck at a node in future for Intel to catch up.
They did. 3nm is no longer using GAAFET. And they have a plan B with 3nm using FinFET.
We judge a company by its past, and present experience. TSMC has always been an open, transparent and conservative company. Much like ARM, they are not there to take the spotlight. They were suppose to be in the background helping companies, it was only in recent 5 years Main Stream Media decided to hype it. Mostly because of Apple.
I see a lot of discussion here that US would glass TSMC fabs if China ever attempted takeover, when realistically China would be the ones to disrupt TSMC proactively and prematurely if PRC indigenous semi industry reaches useful levels. Catching up to EUV is much harder than undermining it. Chinese military modernization = the first island chain strategy is dead. Taiwan never got security guarantee precisely because other strategy to contain China existed (malacca / sloc chokepoint), TSMC dominance is an aberration that no one apart from Taiwan is interested in. Hence I wonder how smooth the Arizona plant will go, possibly foxconn Wisconsin redux, but more pressing.
But it is also a big game of chicken. If the mainland decided to invade (and they are not in a position to do so) the US would not start WWIII by going into a direct war against them.
First: US make a lot of promises to a lot of countries. If they are not willing to go to war over Taiwan, that makes most of those promises (like NATO pact) basically worthless. So US has to defend Taiwan.
Second: Military confrontation between US and Chinese forces does not mean WWIII - they won't start shooting nukes, it will be more conventional war. We had such examples during previous Cold War: Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan.
They are not willing to do to war over Taiwan. The opposite would be insane. Equally China is not willing (and able) either.
This is a balance of threats with both sides knowing where to stop.
The US are obviously not stupid and they never committed to intervene against China. They have just committed to 'help' and make sure that Taiwan can defend itself, which is very different.
> Military confrontation between US and Chinese forces does not mean WWIII
It does when the US directly attack the Chinese over Chinese territory.
I.e. the US would be declaring war on China. I would not let anyone who does not see the insanity of that prospect have a job in government.
You’ve always thought what gets mentioned every single time tsmc is discussed. Interesting.