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Comment by mbit8 | Hacker News Reader

in which way? china seems more like a toothless tiger in this regard

I’d imagine that a Chinese sanction on ARM chips would cause quite some trouble for all the manufacturing of electronic devices that’s happening in China, and that’s even without considering the large consumer market that China is.

Yep,

When Western Digital acquired HGST, the corporation was 'obliged' to hold off full integration for 2 years due to the requirements of the Chinese government:

https://www.theregister.com/2015/10/19/mofcom_says_yes_wd_hg...

China successfully blocked the sale of NXP to Qualcomm, as said in the article. Neither company was Chinese.

According to this[1] 30% of Nvidia's sales are in China. Arm's numbers are similar. If China banned the sale of Nvidia GPUs or added some punitive tariff that'd hurt quite a bit.

[1] https://www.thestreet.com/investing/stocks/nvidia-diversifyi...

But does China have an alternative to ARM CPUs and NVIDIA GPUs?

They tried blocking Github in the past and it did not actually work well.

I imagine something like blocking the production lines of multiple factories would just ensure that these are relocated elsewhere.

MIPS and RISC-V for CPUs; AMD, Intel, and others for PC and embedded GPUs.

ARM's products are predominantly IP and China has a famously lax attitude towards enforcing western-style IP laws.

China wouldn't need an import ban - just a ban on paying license fees.

That can work both directions. If China is going to disregard all US intellectual property rights, then the US can do the same to China (which is the world's largest manufacturer and has at least as much to lose as the US does over such an approach in the coming decades as they seek to move into high value manufacturing increasingly).

That means as China produces its first leading semiconductor products, US companies are free to reverse engineer them and immediately begin producing them (whether in Vietnam, Mexico, Taiwan, South Korea, India or Arizona and Texas), all without compensating China a dime.

As China begins producing its first leading pharma/biotech products, US companies are free to steal all IP from those companies and sell it as their own all around the world, with zero compensation to China.

And so on.

China is going to become the world's largest economy and will soon have the most to lose (if they don't already). Let's see how they like it when the tables are turned.

Escalating the tensions is not a solution; it just makes it harder down the road to find actual, workable solutions.

Bluntly put, do we want a trade war with China to go hot?

I think we do. They've had a very favored status for decades now. I didn't like a much of what Trump did, but playing hardball with China, I definitely liked that.

US has massive IP portfolio advantage, it will lose more. IP intensive sectors account for 1/3 of US GDP and affects as much employment. China is very far away from that and even if she creeps towards or surpass parity, these sectors will employ relatively smaller fraction of total population, i.e. it will affect Chinese society less - these nascent sectors may mature slower or not progress, versus US/west already heavily invested would actively regress. These scenarios have very different ramifications.

It's in both US/west and Chinese interests to maintain general IP racket and deal with sectors of exception. China is obviously not going to respect IP that it is willing to license if said denied via sanctions / geopolitical posturing. Just like military R&D, lack of access = valid rationale to espionage and undermine. West sanctions arms export to China after Tiananmen, now China has massive indigenous military industry. Semiconductors seems no different. Would have been better to draw out reliance on foreign hardware.

China has already sunk in billions into RISC-V. So they are working on it. And it would not suspires me they will weaponise it against ARM.

The winner would be us, as we have more to choose from, and since RISC-V is open nothing much will stop non-Chinese manufacturers from also making their versions. We may see a reverse version of the familiar Chinese tech cloning in this case.

NVIDIA has significant board design and assembly work in China. Plus they would not want to be locked out of a large economy. A good chink of ARM's revenue is probably already coming from China and sanctions could hurt that as well

C-word is probably a typo, but flagging anyway.

You are truly the chink in this person's armor.

Maybe you should invest in a dictionary instead...

Sotbank holds massive investment in China. For instance Softbank own 25% of Alibaba (this 25% are way more valuable than ARM). So yes they do have a large power over Softbank not complying to their decision.

I have to agree, if companies based in China can't license ARM chips (like Rockchip, Allwinner) and can't manufacture ARM chips then what are they going to put into all their electronics from Xiaomi, Huawei etc?

They'd have to start manufacturing their existing ARM design without license (good luck exporting that).

Have you noticed that there's a scramble to RISC-V?

Wait till China pulls a hong kong on taiwan. It will be clearer...

Pulling that on a strategically located island with its own government and a military that has been preparing for that exact eventuality will be a LOT harder than with Hong Kong.

Just wait until something that might never, to happen. Ok.

They could ban the manufacturing of anything with an ARM core, in China, in the extreme case.

That would be an epic own goal. The west is desperate to reduce chip manufacturing reliance on China.

Can you tell me which chips are produced in PRC? (Not Tawain and TSMC)

That’s a complicated geopolitical question.

SMIC produces lots of chips. But if China tries to clamp down on ARM production, it will hurt TSMC.

The chips might be mostly produced in Taiwan, but they are mostly assembled into products in China. If China banned use of ARM chips in products that would disrupt basically the entire smartphone supply chain. Of course, this would greatly harm China too. But they can still use the threat of doing without actually doing it.

The majority of Samsung's phones are made outside of China (eg their huge presence in Vietnam). It can obviously be done and done affordably. Samsung wouldn't do that just for fun. If Samsung can move their assembly out of China, so can Apple.

I'm sure Apple could, but not overnight. I'd imagine it would take them at least a year. Which would make for a pretty major disruption.

Don’t forget that Apple is slowly ramping up its manufacturing presence in India, in addition to Vietnam mentioned by another comment, to further mitigate its over reliance on China.

https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/apple-india-manu...

This is more spreading out final assembly to dodge tariffs, both US and Indian. Losing out on assembly is minor compared to moving up component value chain. Queue meme about China making $8 per iPhone 3G (3% of cost). It grew to $100 for iPhone X (25% of cost). Reliance is growing.

Samsung's somewhat exceptional in that they have a lot of domestic high end component manufacturing. But even they've been increasing Chinese manufacturing via ODMs for lower end models while media was talking about their move to Vietnam. I think their high end models still sources ~30% from China.

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