Comment by bartmika | Hacker News Reader

Comment by bartmika | Hacker News Reader

> On one scuba diving excursion while in the compound having lunch, Brad engaged a couple from Germany in conversation. Brad asked about the fellow travelers occupation and discovered he was a computer programmer. Lifewise, Brad was asked about his life's work and stated I am also a computer programmer. "What do you do?" Brad was asked. I wrote Objective-C. Astonished, the gentlerman said, "No, Brad Cox wrote that". "Hi, I am Brad Cox", was the response and the introduction.

Wonderful story. I wish his family all the best.

I love Objective-C and consider it a beautiful language. Back in the day I re-discovered my love for programming when I started to learn this language. This was when I was still in the Java world.

As a side project I tried to build a drone (unmanned navel vehicle) powered by objective-c. I have abandoned the effort but posted the code on GitHub - it was a joy to work with the language and the funnest side project I’ve worked with.

These days I work with python and golang for job/hobby but I always am grateful to have spent time with objective-c. Reflecting back if I haven’t spent time with this language, today I would of not been a programmer.

Thank you Brad Cox for your work and positive influence.

Objective-C is a real object oriented programming language. Everything is messages. Reverse engineering ObjC as a security engineer over the years has been a treat. The runtime is a breeze to work with and the language itself made substantial usability improvements over C. It’s phased out over Swift now, but I really have no complaints over my time with the language, a rare thing in tech. I didn’t know you, Mr. Cox, but I enjoyed your work.

Coincidentally, I've been doing RE for many years, starting in the days of DOS and then moving into Windows, but it was only very recently --- less than a week ago --- that I had my first look at an app written in ObjC, and the first thing I noticed was the amount of information in the binary that seemed to almost give away most of its source: method, field, and class names everywhere. When I saw a method named something like checkLicenseSignature, I almost thought it was misdirection.

The second thing that I found astonishing was that these strings were actually being used by the runtime to determine what to call, i.e. something that in basically every other native language I've seen would be a direct or indirect call to an address or vtable offset. All this in an application that has no exported functions. I can definitely see how it would make RE extremely straightforward! Efficiency, on the other hand...

Objective-C, at least these days, is plenty fast, with a the cost of a message send being comparable to a virtual function call. The fast path of objc_msgSend is just over a dozen instructions.

Plus for critical sections you can obtain method pointers which are just C functions.

as i recall, `libobjc` is ~25% of app launch time. `objc_msgSend` is quite expensive when you're making hundreds of thousands to millions of calls per second.

Although Swift has the spotlight, Objective-C keeps being improved.

"Advancements in the Objective-C runtime"

https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10163/

Swift uses the Objective-C runtime.

Swift is tiptoeing between static and dynamic typing, preferring the former when feasible, but often needing some of the latter when dealing with the UI.

Swift can uses the Objective-C runtime for interoperability with Objective-C code, just like .NET uses COM on Windows.

They need to interoperate with the rest of the platform.

The compiler does some very fancy stuff with objc_msgSend to make it fast, and the selectors are interned.

https://www.mikeash.com/pyblog/objc_msgsends-new-prototype.h...

Objective-C had an IMP pointer, essentially a function pointer. If you needed to send a message to an object in a tight loop, you could extract the pointer before the loop and use it inside.

I would guess that most of app startup time isn't going to objc_msgSend (although it is still probably slow as it hasn't warmed up yet) but rather to setting up the various data structures used by the runtime, applying initial swizzling and the associated cache invalidation that comes from that, and those pesky +loads that every analytics framework thinks it need to have ;)

The M1 chip has specialized paths on it just to make the message sending even faster. That’s part of the M1 magic.

To be fair I think the extent of this specialization is a branch hint

It’s still a kind of neat trick. One of those paths where even a little optimization goes a long way due to it being so hot.

> these strings were actually being used by the runtime to determine what to call

Fortunately it doesn't do a full string comparison - it just compares the value of the string pointers, I understand.

Yes: selectors are interned.

> All this in an application that has no exported functions

This is not strictly true: On macOS/iOS the OS/frameworks/plug-ins may call your methods, likewise with support for services, input managers, distributed objects, etc.

The responder chain is a good example of this dynamism: The input manager (responsible for interpreting key strokes) translate the user’s input into a message, e.g. “copy” or “insert A” and then finds the first object in the chain of objects that responds to this message.

This chain of objects may consist of standard framework objects (like a text view) or it may be your custom objects (like a view controller subclass).

In most other environments, you would have to create special interfaces for stuff you want to make public, this means only that stuff suffers the performance overhead, but you generally pay the cost in code complexity, see e.g. Window’s Component Object Model.

Java also owns it to Objective-C, while it copied C++ syntax, protocols, reflection and dynamic loading come from Objective-C.

https://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/java-objc.html

And what many J2EE/JEE haters aren't aware of, it started as an Objective-C framework during the OpenSTEP days, and the OS was called Spring.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_Objects_Everywhere

I think it's fair to say it owes some to Obj-C, but both Obj-C and Java owe a lot more to Smalltalk.

Also true.

Not to sidetrack the conversation, but I found your typo of calling a drone an unmanned navel vehicle quite apt!

I wonder what objective-c would look like with the square brackets turned into parenthesis...

Would probably look a little less sharp...C-flat?

unmanned belly button vehicles are the best. much better than the manned ones

Reply on news.ycombinator.com