How hard should I push myself?
superorganizers.every.to
superorganizers.every.to
Of course in the modern world, calories are too cheap to meter. Our instincts no longer make sense. It's almost certainly the case that our laziness, driven by a vestigial impulse to conserve calories, far exceeds what's optimal or necessary.
The one exception to this is the tiredness of sleep deprivation. Critical biological functions occurs in deep sleep, and being exhausted due to lack of sleep cannot be made up with extra calories. The best advice is to never allow yourself to become sleep deprived. That removes any ambiguity about whether a perceived lack of energy is genuine exhaustion or can be powered through with willpower.
It must be equally OK to amend incomplete statements, otherwise we stagnate.
[0] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/inviting-monkey-tea/...
It is ok to point out the 5%.
I want to reiterate that for people with few spoons [1], they don’t need to get permission to be allowed to only do what works for them, or to feel shame for not being able to do what can seem easier for others: i.e. ‘powering through’.
I’ve seen this ugly thing where people make all sorts of assumptions about me, and perhaps unconsciously, yet verbally, speak out their train of thought, which means they often say something that ‘excuses me’ for not ‘powering through’, or that after reminding them of my background, that they now understand why I do not force myself to ‘power through’. It feels shit and it sucks because it’s a constant reminder of the ruthless productivity that is expected in many areas in modern life. A conversation like this can also slowly lure me back into taking on way too much, way too fast, and not properly looking after myself or others.
Not all disabilities are visible.
It could be as simple as having a young child, for example.
Anecdote:
When I depressed or stressed, taking action and following a preset list of tasks (brush teeth, hit the gym, make lunch) doesn't 'cure' my mood, but it does reduce my anxiety/stress/depression.
By "powering through it" I stop stress driven by inaction (e.g. not brushing my teeth while result even more stress later).
If I stick with my routine, it reduces my cognitive load, allowing my brain time to calm down. Its similar to how mediation helps you stay calm. Following the routine reduces the number of decisions I need to make.
As much as I might want, taking a sick day to lay in bed all day doesn't help anything and would make me more depressed as I think about all of the stuff I should of done.
Another anecdote is that sometimes "just power through" is a trigger phrase that leads down a path of shame and self-criticism which only serve to fuel deeper depression/anxiety/stress and so forth. There's a cultural myth that people who struggle are weak and less than people who are successful. Depression can really amplify that story. When I'm in that place I need to scale back expectations, find something (anything) I can do that's healthy, and cut myself some slack. The truth is we all struggle and success has many dimensions.
The "just power through" line isn't wrong, in fact, it's exactly what I need to hear sometimes. But it can also be exactly the wrong thing. I think it needs a heavy dose of empathy and compassion along with it.
I powered through writing my dissertation and got a PhD.
I powered through a workout that felt wrong and got rhabdomyolysis.
You win some, you lose some. Consider the risks and the rewards.
Very bad. But what you are saying is probably right.
Maybe for intellectual laborers in the global north. Not for the starving billion who are barely surviving, yet are also producing all the commodities global north capitalists force them to make: often after having been forcefully bribed/expelled from their land, mostly by ruthless global north firms together with corrupt governments. [1]
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Tv-hE4Yx0LU
https://youtube.com/watch?v=SrW46sBXJYo
https://youtu.be/OaGp5_Sfbss?t=31
In the Western World. 2 billion people are deficient https://ourworldindata.org/hunger-and-undernourishment
i dont think that first part proves the second one, conserving energy is important but so is figuring out how to obtain more energy and more importantly reproduction and survival. I dont think its fair to say that humans didnt evolve to invest energy without imidiate gratification, or that our brains natural reward system is poorly suited for science/math. Personally i dont see it as a struggle to overcome my nature so much as a struggle to alter my lifestyle and biases such that they are in harmony with my nature.
> we see that on average 57 percent, 64 percent, and 67 percent of children born survive to age 15 years among hunter-gatherers, forager-horticulturalists, and acculturated hunter-gatherers.
https://gurven.anth.ucsb.edu/sites/secure.lsit.ucsb.edu.anth...
A couple years ago I was extremely naive and prioritized my work over everything else. Exercise, nutrition, sleep, and even relationships were seen as a waste of time, and were just a barrier to achieving more.
Then, eventually I burnt out. But even then I still tried to push myself. I started having anxiety, dissociation (mainly depersonalization), and a lack of passion towards anything in my life. It was a really rough point in my life.
After a lot of work I am now at a stage in my life when I can push myself again. However my highest priority is to maintain a lifestyle that allows me to push myself in a sustainable manner. This means good nutrition, fitness, and prioritizing my own mental well being.
The effects of that burn out are unbelievable. I still live with a lot of that today, but have learned to manage it. Push yourself, but please take care.
Could you elaborate on what kind(s) of work you went through to get back to that personal equilibrium?
Admittedly, upon burning out, it took a while for me to actually acknowledge the multiple issues I was having in my life. I still had the toxic mentality of “just push through”, and therefore a lot of the personal work I did was incremental.
The very first thing I did was reduce my workload. It was probably still too much, but at the time it was unthinkable to stop working entirely.
Sleep, diet and exercise were next. Diet was nothing crazy, but I just wanted to eat consistent meals (I was massively underweight). Unfortunately I also had to come to terms with the fact that I am part of the population that needs at least 8 hours of sleep. I really wish I could manage on less sleep, but it is what it is. I’m also not a huge fan of running, but it massively reduced the amount of depressive and anxious thoughts, so I kept doing it.
After those changes I found that my energy levels were much better than before.
The next phase was completely mental. I hated that I failed at something, and had to learn to forgive myself. To be honest, I am still working on that. Also, I was terrified of burning out again, and went through a weird phase of over thinking and analyzing everything. Turns out it was analysis paralysis. Experimentation/tinkering helped with that. It also helped me relearn how to learn, and how to enjoy work again.
A therapist probably would’ve sped up this part of my recovery, but I hated admitting that I had a problem that I couldn’t solve myself. Very toxic mentality and one I still face to this day.
I also recently started journaling. I’m not overly consistent (working on that!), but it forces me to take a step back and evaluate my mental state at the time of writing.
It’s an ongoing process, and there are probably a lot of steps I’ve missed. However these were the major goals that I had, and achieving them definitely helped. It’s very cliche, but forgiving yourself and being honest with your capabilities is crucial.
Hopefully someone reading this can take something away from this. Burnout is no joke, and it has permanently changed my life.
TL;DR: 1. Reduction of workload. 2. Prioritize physical well being (food, exercise, sleep), and being honest with my body. 3. Improve mental well being. 4. Start experimenting, and relearning how to learn/work.
In fact, I think we often would rather push ourselves in an all out burst of max effort exhaustion, than put dedication and consistency behind a goal.
Pushing yourself just a little bit more, but sustainably, consistently, and actually taking your progression slower, giving yourself more time to achieve your goals, but making sure that you're constantly moving little by little closer to it. That's what worked best for me. It means the journey feels easy as well, it just becomes a routine of excellence.
I think what often happens is that we're too impatient, probably because we're anxious about the thing we're trying to achieve, we're stressed about it and would like to get it over with so we can be stress free again, so we give a big push, and you know what, most of the time that push does nothing, and you get more stressed but also exhausted. At that point, flight is often the only recourse left.
The only exception to this might be short little events, like sure if you have an exam, a bit of stress and a last all out effort can help. If you're competing in some athletic event similarly. But for most other life goals, I'm not so sure.
> There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.
That one reminds me what success even means. Simply growing myself, being slightly better today than I was yesterday is accomplishment and success in itself. When you focus on others or external achievements, you tend to get lazy in your approach to growth, you look for shortcuts, push harder than is smart, and you get anxious, nervous, stressed in a way that will slow your growth long term.
> Most people overestimate what they can do in a day, and underestimate what they can do in a month. We overestimate what we can do in a year, and underestimate what we can accomplish in a decade.
This one reminds me why you got to give yourself longer horizons to success. Success and accomplishment follow an exponential curve in my opinion, you need to keep that focus and continue to accumulate that momentum until the tipping point.
I keep reading all these words about patience, consistency, how it compounds over time. I believe in all of that. But my own reality is this: I seem to have a very high activation threshold around most of things. For some, this means I'm unable to maintain steady, casual pace. By the time I work up enough energy to move past the potential barrier, the scheduled time is up and I should go do something else. In these cases, I naturally fall back to the pattern of working up the energy and then going non-stop. It tends to make the activation barrier even higher, but over time it seems to integrate to more actual progress.
(On that note, being a husband and a father, forcing me to keep a semblance of regular schedule, made this difficult for me.)
> The only exception to this might be short little events, like sure if you have an exam, a bit of stress and a last all out effort can help. If you're competing in some athletic event similarly. But for most other life goals, I'm not so sure.
I wish I knew how to reach that state, instead of having this natural tendency of turning things into "short little events".
If I have a relatively focused task to work on, but I also have meeting in the middle of the day, can be a 30 minute call, I know I will not succeed. I really need that build up and then hold on to that momentum. And after, even when I'm satisfied and happy with my work, its super hard to let go. I will keep looking into improvements during the evening and will linger on it in bed.
I still have to figure out how to deal with this. But then I'm only 29 and just starting my professional career, so enough time to learn and grow.
On the other hand, things that mostly stretch your mind, such as science disciplines, you can do well in your 70s, 80s, or possibly even 90s. If you start at 29 with studying physics, you could get on top of your field by 45-50, leaving you quite some time to enjoy your top of the field.
29 is fine to start with most things I'd guess, especially if you've got experiences you can bring to your new career that others might not have.
But through that all these tasks form a big daunting mountain of stress and effort together and then i keep putting them off and procrastinate.
I came across a variation of this advice in the book Mathematicians Delight by W.W.Sawyer a long time ago. He said something like; when trying to learn new mathematical ideas/concepts always start with a book 80% of which is already known and 20% is what is new. That way you bolster your confidence with the refresher and have to struggle with only a few concepts at a time. Your motivation and energy can be used optimally. If you think about it, this makes eminent sense. This is the reason i really dislike the "bro/competitive" time-based approach to learning and am a great fan of each person learning at their own pace and only competing with their past selves.
Maybe you misunderstood the article, but this is what it is about. "How hard should I push myself", one of the factors was just sustainability.
I’m not really sure why I am this way, but I do know that the periods in my life when I have tried to not be this way have been some of the most miserable.
Alternatively: people generally can walk further than they can run.
(And before someone says life is not about efficiency - it is. Getting your life to be more how you like it for less effort is a good thing.)
And yet most people's code (in my team at least) after 6-7 hours of work tend to be crap and is usually refactored later when they are fresh.
For it to count as "constant" in humans it has be in periods smaller than what period of time the individual can stay focused... Which is anywhere between 30 minutes and 1 hour, for most people.
I've observed that, and it's definitely the case for me too - but often, the choice isn't between crappy code in a day vs. good code in two - it's a choice between crappy code in a day and no code at all.
> For it to count as "constant" in humans it has be in periods smaller than what period of time the individual can stay focused... Which is anywhere between 30 minutes and 1 hour, for most people.
Don't forget to count the time it takes to spool up to achieve focused productivity. Which can easily be 30 minutes or more.
My father is like this. I've described him as a "serial obsessionist". I recognize in myself several unhealthy behaviors that likely developed due to his influence in this regard.
One wonders if there is a correlation between this trait and people who end up in tech these days. The rampant overengineering and workaholism would suggest the possibility.
After getting diagnosed with ADHD last year at 32 a lot of things in my life made sense, including why I tend to focus on whatever I'm interested to the exclusion of almost all other things and just get into things way, way too intensely. There is no getting a little bit interested in something and just engaging with things casually for me. If I get into something it gets extreme. That can last 3 days, 3 weeks, 3 months, or 3 years. I tend to like it when it's 3 years as the short duration hyperfocus tends to lead to a lot of impulse buys related to the obsession that then become useless once I'm no longer interested. The times when it goes for years I wind up outstripping my peers as most noone can match the time and intensity I put in.
It's stereotypically thought of as an inability to focus your attention ("can't sit still and concentrate"), but it's also an inability to stop focusing on something you know isn't in your overall interest/plans.
A lot. So called "hyperfocus" is a hallmark of ADHD. Most people might think of ADHD as can't concentrate or get distracted easily due to the "attention deficit" moniker but in reality ADHD is badly named, and it's much more an inability to direct your attention. Hyperfocus is the the opposite extreme of not being able to concentrate and getting distracted easily as you find yourself unable to switch your attention away from what it is you're interested in. This is especially problematic when you have other activities that require your attention like filing your taxes, folding the washing, taking out the trash and doing the dishes as you tend to not be able to get your brain to accept engaging in those tasks and often some of them wind up left undone. Sure you made progress in whatever the latest obsession was, but you find relationships with those around you strained with this constant back and forth of "you left dirty dishes in the sink again last night, you forgot to take out the rubbish again, and when you fold the washing don't just fold the washing but also put it away please" and all you want to talk about is the cool new stuff you learned last night.
Edit: I find it quaint that people can consider how hard they should push themselves and have the option of doing it or not. I get sucked into it no matter what.
I've got another comment in this thread with several links. In general if you resonate with a lot of that stuff it's worth getting an evaluation.
I believe that people should no longer treat AD(H)D as an acronym. It isn't accurate to call it a chronic "deficit of attention" and hyperactivity isn't necessarily a symptom. It's unfortunate that the name has to stay for the purpose of recognition in the face of the new evidence we've gathered in the past few decades.
Interesting. I feel like that fits me to a T.
If I'm not interested in something, it's very hard for me to get in to a focused state of mind.
Why did they disqualify you based on being able to focus on things you like?
Lack of knowledge on the part of the person assessing them. Some people who go for diagnosis wind up going to people who don't specialise in it and they wind up being told these kind of things.
I can't do multiple things... either focus on studying and studying alone (and get above average grades).. but basically end up like I am now -- friendless, with boring hobbies and interests and very lonely. Or focus on things that fill my life, and catastrophically mess up my education. And for the discipline I want to work in, I really need good grades (but also good social skills).
I also want to add that despite studying nearly 24/7, and fully understanding every single concept (and much more!), I still manage to mess up in exams due to the lack of concentration (I.e. accidentally saw that plus as a minus, didn't see that term, etc. Dumb things like that). (I need time to hyperfocus, and the exam durations don't permit this)
I am still young, so this really worries me. I feel that I have basically wasted my teenage-hood, childhood, and now on the path of wasting my youth as well.
I feel ya man. The more interesting thing always wins and the other thing gets forgotten about or "I'll come back to it". Trying to do more than one thing feels conflicting pretty quickly.
When I was younger in my mid 20s before I was diagnosed there was a period where it was amazing. People around me couldn't understand how I was able to get on the level I was able to get on. But if you zoom out and look at my life on the whole from 17 to 27 I had 5 different jobs and _in aggregate_ only managed to be gainfully employed for 1 year out of those 10. My early adult life was a wreck.
Now I'm in my early 30s Ive got a decent career because I hyperfocused on that and instead now my health is a wreck. After suffering a brush with burnout last year I'm now trying to focus on my health.
I think I cycle back and forth on it being a burden. Pre-diagnosis I just had no idea why I felt consumed by what I was into to the point where some days I felt like I had no agency because I was starting to get that burny-outy feeling and wish I could do something else with my time but was always find myself sucked into "just. one. more". Though there are times when you just are constantly in this deep flow state and nothing else matters. It's just impossible to balance. There is no balance.
I still haven't actually got diagnosed. It's only recently that I started suspecting I may have some form of ADHD.
It helped tremendously with that aspect. Balance so far I haven't been able to obtain still. I haven't had any luck with medication yet as apparently 20% of people don't respond to it and I might be one of those people. So far I've only tried a sustained release formulation of Methylphenidate and I don't notice any difference. For other people the difference is quite dramatic. I've been encouraged by r/ADHD to be persistent in trying to find if there is a combination of meds that works for me. Next I will try the instant release version.
It's helped my health a lot. I would always put off going to the doctor or dentist and thought if I ignore it it'll go away. Since learning that untreated ADHD has a life expectancy that's shorter by 13 years on average (due to increased risk of a accidents, obesity, drug addiction, suicide etc) I've really started to put an emphasis on fixing my litany of health problems and in the past 12 months have started to see progress.
Getting diagnosed was the biggest revelation of my life and a very positive thing for me. The down side is is you go through this honeymoon phase where you feel like "now that I know what this is I can finally solve all the problems" and eventually realising it's a neurological condition and not a curable disease.
But for sure if you have suspicions seek an evaluation. One thing that I found interesting is that it presents very differently in people, so how one person describes it might not be how you experience it. Generally speaking though if the patterns that emerge when you start looking through r/ADHD and How To ADHD YouTube channel and the book "Driven To Distraction" resonate with you then it's probably a pretty good indication.
Wall of Awful https://youtu.be/Uo08uS904Rg
The ADHD Tax https://youtu.be/pAG0jUYeAG0
Driven To Distraction is available on Audible and I think you get one free book if you create a new account. That's how I read it anyway.
This video is hands down the best explainer video Ive found out of all that I have watched
Also this video highlights some really interesting research which shows why we get distracted. Basically the Default Mode Network and Task Positive Network are supposed to anti- correlate and in ADHD brains they don't perfectly do that.
In any case, by now I've seen firsthand how little practical relevance most school and university lectures had. So I guess the first step for you should be to stop worrying too much about doing well on any given test. Chances are, being more relaxed will also help you avoid these little concentration mistakes.
Yeah, I have recently picked up the habit of walking daily for 30 - 60 minutes, but at the end of the day. It's quite refreshing and helpful, not to mention the physical exercise aspect. It feels good to think on the day's decisions / what happened, and think if what I am doing is what I really want or not.
>[...] by now I've seen firsthand how little practical relevance most school and university lectures had.
Yeah, I have heard this a lot. My problem lies in GPAs being used as filters, both for job applications and scholarships. It just hurts to think of the possibility that I could be passed over, not because of my actual skillset or level, but due to exam performance.
You are probably right if your goal is to work in a large conservative corporation. But for startups and medium sized companies,nobody cares.
I've found that this strategy works elsewhere as well. Simply mixing up my environment (working in a coffee shop vs a library vs my room vs etc) tends to make me focus better as I adapt really well to new situations but grow complacent in routines.
As for the social side, I've found that forcibly inserting myself into situations I might find uncomfortable is the way to go. I tended to group up with people who are trying a similar thing and we ended up forming a close bond, because I (and others like me) prefer fewer, closer relationships.
For example, I joined a Discord server someone made for my dorm. On the first day, someone offered to play cards with people and I went even though I would maybe normally stay in. About half the people there are in my friend group now.
Hopefully this rambling helps you :)
I never really tried mixing things up before. In hindsight, I really should have because routine does bore me a lot.
Getting out of my comfort zone is what I have been doing this semester, and it's going well, I'd say.. haven't really made any friends (like you, I prefer fewer, closer and deeper friendships), but I have been having fun and gained some valuable experiences, so I guess it balances out.
I used to be like that.
Pushing yourself, to file the taxes, finish your personal project, go for a run, lookup something in wikipedia.. that is almost always good.
Being pushed by clients, the organization, dead lines. Often bad.
My theory, burnout and stress, happen in environments where you receive responsibilities without the power to fulfill them.
You're pushing your taxes because you had a busy quarter at work getting that project out the door. Your pushing your running because you've been overeating due to stress at work/with kids/etc. Your pushing your personal project because dealing with a personal situation is just too much right now. Maybe you're pushing because you drank the koolaid (and who hasn't?) that you should 'live life to it's fullest' and be busy every waking second.
In general, pushing is I think a crutch that we sometimes need to use, but probably should use a little as possible. In an ideal life, all those things would fit in naturally.
I find accepting limits, revising my priorities, and taking freedom I actually have (as opposed to me and/or society being trained to not recognising it) to do what feels good is a better approach.
Discipline is not in pushing, discipline is in understanding yourself, your environment and setting honest priorities.
I disagree with this part, respectfully of course, based on my own personal experience. I can see how external forces do lead to poor decision making and short sightedness; on the other hand I also think of the vast ways I've grown and new things I've learned from designers who drew something I originally thought was impossible, or clients who wanted something built in a language I'd never had any interest in using before. Generally speaking these external forces may push you beyond the limits of your own imagination.
For me this is more a mode of operation. My way to relex is to be productive in a different field (e.g. to relax from programming I'd do electronics, build a thing in Blender, etc.)
You can do one yourself on understandmyself.com
No problem, start Climbing and Mountaineering you will learn really fast that there is no low commitment, not a community or other peoples that can push or judge you, the situation (nature) demands that from you, there is no NO, and there is no give up. At the end of the day you feel like buddha and superman, repeat that 100s of times and your focus will compleetly shift away from the commitment standpoint to the "what do i really wanna achieve"-point the rest is nonsense and will come automatically.
It's interesting because I'm currently at that crossroads in my life. I just left the PE that bought my firm and am unemployed for the first time in 20 years. Wife is freaking because loss of income is detrimental to the house we're currently trying to buy and just scary to her.
Building great things from the ground up with great people is where my passion lies. I'm not really the guy to get a job with one foot out the door or do 2 things halfways - and I know ultimately living my time passionately will win out. I guess I'm just saying that I understand where you're at, from an inverted perspective.
It's an exhausting life at times but feels well lived.
I've mentioned this on HN before and got some good ideas in replies[0], but I still can't find a formula that can bring that state back. Unfortunately, I concluded that the most plausible answer is somewhat dysfunctional and... "base", for a lack of better term - those hyperfocus achievements had a big component of impressing my peer group. They started with me telling myself or someone else, "like hell I/we can't do X, hold my beer...". Something I can't really recreate these days.
--
I believe this is a huge source of stress today, with 24-hour news and addictive social media all constantly screaming "the sky is falling" and there's absolutely _nothing_ you can do about any of it. As an experiment, for every bit of news and every tweet you read, ask yourself "is this actionable?"
The best thing you can do for your personal mental and physical well-being is stop paying attention. If you can find a source of local, actionable news that actually affects you, great (good luck). Otherwise just focus on the immediate world around you - family, friends, job, community - and let the larger world do what it's going to do anyways.
Last month, I deleted all of my social media accounts outside of LinkedIn, Tildes, and Hacker News. Additionally, I blocked news sites in my browser and subscribed to both the Economist for current events and the Athletic for my sports addiction.
At first, it was strange- there was a constant feeling that I was missing out on things happening that all my friends and family were in on. I realized, after a while, that I now spend more time improving myself personally rather than worrying about what others are doing.
I wouldn't say I am less distracted.. but it's a different kind of distraction. Rather than finding myself aimlessly browsing a never-ending stream of posts on Reddit, I am now trying to answer questions on Stackoverflow. Rather than reading through posts of my peers landing internships and stressing myself out, I spend time on my resume and learning Go.
Also, people text and call me now rather than shooting me a message on social media which is honestly really nice. Even more so with the current COVID climate.
The most important part though is that I feel as if I have spent more meaningful time with my significant other.
Another change is that I separated my devices.
My laptop ONLY has stuff for school and programming on it. Our iPad has the entertainment in books, games, etc (radio.garden has been fun exploring). My phone has all the default Apple programs only. Since doing so, I can't count the number of times I picked up my phone subconsciously, swiped through it realizing there isn't anything on there, then asking myself why I even picked it up to begin with.
Sorry for the rant.. it's just been a strange adjustment that is showing benefits personally.
Why "The Economist"? I've been trying to find a news source I can trust and won't leave me feeling like we're f--ked as a species and nothing is worthwhile doing.
What are your thoughts on choosing that publication?
It's essentially a macro view of the world that allows me to dig more into the things I want.
* Low Risk
* Low Stress
* High Reward.
It seems less down to choice than personality in terms of which two you personally should choose, but understanding the tradeoffs you're making is a good thing regardless.
I'm trying to envision something that's high reward and high risk, and isn't stressful.
for a long time I've dabbled on "low risk + low stress" and the new me is trying to go to the 'high reward' mode but yeah, something is got to give.
I basically went from a government worker to an entrepreneur so basically from one side of the low risk of the spectrum to the other. needless to say ,things have been stressful :)
And also, if you get a choice of "pick two", you could also: "pick one, balance the other two", "balance all three", etc.
Finally, high risk seems tied to high stress, as also mentioned in sibling comment [1].
Actually, I think this is a wrong rule of thumb. In my experience, there is more of a "barbell dynamics" (Taleb):
I can take a lot of stress at once, but then I need some time to recover. I find this perfectly healthy and it grows me as a human being. On the other hand, when I'm under constant stress with no relief in sight, that's the real killer.
If you push yourself hard often, relaxing and taking more time off will be a challenge for you and reveal new aspects of yourself with which you were not previously aware.
If you half ass everything, taking on as much responbility as possible and working as hard as possible will be a challenge for you and reveal new aspects of yourself with which you were not previously aware.
You are not your career
On the one hand, most people say that you shouldn't push yourself hard. You should take a rest. Take your time.
Pushing hard may lead to burnout/big stress/depression/anxiety/whatever.
On the other hand:
1. I see that well-known people who work hard has some results. Literally, a minute ago I saw a tweet from a guy is very well known, and dedicated his life for one thing. And he's working really hard.
2. For me, it depends. If I don't push myself, if I'm not being strict with myself, if I'm not angry I usually don't get any result. However, after continuous hard-work I eventually got burned out.
So it's really hard to keep balance
Some people are healthier, happier and thrive through the feeling of productivity - whether it be work, a hobby, or a side project. I'd say depression is more common with people who don't have anything to do.
I mean, I truly believe that each person is unique.
For some persons it's okay to live a measured, calm life
But for others it might be okay pushing. E.g., in the evenings some people go home & drink bear & relax. Others lift weights and "suffer". Some work 24x7 while being happy.
"Burnout is a real thing but it's ridiculously overblown" - I like that :) Let's keep pushing than!
I just want people to avoid reading articles on burnout from the internet and thinking it immediately applies to you. Trivializing and attributing burnout with hard, driven work is equally harmful, in my opinion, because burnout is just as much a larger combination of other factors. Worse, one could easily overlook actual mental issues present in their lives because the internet tells you its burnout.
You probably get frustrated. You're not getting burned out.
But from someone who has experienced burn-out, it's definitely not something to take lightly. Real burn out kills your curiosity, your capacity to concentrate, to enjoy things. It's close to depression. And like any disease, once it has you in its fangs, it realise how much you miss the life you took for granted before. I know people that have had to abandon a network and a carreer, and that have not recovered three years on.
It sounds like what you're describing here is simple fatigue and not burnout. Burnout is psychologically different from fatigue in important ways, just like depression is different from feeling sad and PTSD is different from feeling worried.
> Some people are healthier, happier and thrive through the feeling of productivity - whether it be work, a hobby, or a side project. I'd say depression is more common with people who don't have anything to do.
Yup. People thrive when they feel they are using their strengths towards meaningful ends.
Right, people reporting the way they feel is a total lie
Speaking as a dev who spent 2018-2019 30% out-of-state for travel - you're wrong
True burnout probably isn't as common as the internet makes it out to be. But, actual burnout is a real thing and can be completely debilitating.
It's a lot like over training when exercising. It's serious when it happens, but it isn't that common among the workout for 30-60 minutes/day type people.
He is tweeting. That means his goal is to portray a certain image. Given your impression, that is part of his intended image and he almost certainly does not work as hard as his social media makes out.
(And, if he is that well-known, he might employ people to take care of his social media)
You should push yourself. You shouldn't push yourself too hard. In terms of physical activity, you should push yourself to the point that it's hard, but not to the point that your injured, nor to the point that you're exhausted for several days. For mental activity, it's kind of the same.
When covid came around and I started working from home I realized how much stress I had at the office. For at least the last 2 to 3 years I would get these huge headaches which would completely disable me and completely drain my energy. I was convinced that it was purely physical for the longest time. I did yoga, worked out, when to chiropractor, ... nothing really helped. I ended up at a physiotherapist with a lot of experience, who was able to look beyond the physical. After having yet another huge headache during my work week I discussed this with her, we were looking for the what could have stressed me. It was an email.
I was working on one project that I needed to finish to continue the work of my team when an email came in about another project I had been pushing away for a while. This email reminding me of that project stressed me so much that it completely disabled me.
I still regularly have these headaches, but now I can start thinking to myself, what stresses me here? And I can focus on fixing those issues. Most of these issues aren't just an easy fix, especially now, but its helping me. I'm helping me, I'm listening to my body.
Also related to the topic of stress and its consequences is When The Body Says No by Dr. Gabor Mate [1]. He did a few talks on the subject, you can find them on Youtube [2].
1. https://drgabormate.com/book/when-the-body-says-no/
2. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=when+the+body+s...
I have a theory that there's a constant level of happiness and misery that we experience in most normal situations that really has more to do with who we are than our situation. So for example, a guy may experience a certain level of anxiety about losing his job that doesn't depend on whether he's the janitor or the CEO. He will feel the same amount of pressure and exertion whether he's trying to finish mopping the floor on time or launch a successful IPO.
To the extent that this is true, you might as well be the CEO.
A related view is that our perceived difficulties are relative to our challenges. I used this example before: my wife and I are pretty busy with our 1 kid. Our rabbi is seemingly equally busy with his 10 kids. I bet we'd feel roughly as busy if we each doubled our number of kids.
Similarly, I didn't feel that it was "harder" to go to business school while working fill time than it was to just work. It all kinda feels the same, so the "pushing" part is more about being able to get yourself into the situation than handling the situation on on-going basis.
And the kicker is that it all works out way less stressful. If the CEO and janitor worry about losing their job about the same, but the CEO has a much nicer cushion if he actually gets fired, you might as well try to be the CEO. Similarly, if being an individual contributor and being a manager are about equally hard on you, be the manager because if you ever get sick of the job, you'll have 2x the opportunity (all the management jobs along with all the IC jobs) versus just being the IC.
All this is a long winded way to say - people over-estimate the stress of being at the next level, and under-estimate the reduction in background stress that actually being at that level brings.
This has a name: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill
Personally I try to stay in balance, that way things come more naturally, and there isn't this sword of Damokles hanging over every day I "don't perform". Fostering natural curiosity and intrinsic motivation seems like a worthwhile goal to me (I'm not much of a people person). Then even if you can't combine this with work there'll still be something to look forward to afterward.
Oh and never forget to live life a little too ;)
I personally haven't listened to it in very great detail as if I were taking the course, but I often skip around to listen to the dissections of various aspects of human behavior.
[1]: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD7E21BF91F3F9683
I know the immediate comments will be - focus on your job not side projects, this is obviously why you struggled to buckle down on "actual work". However, I would say that my day to day work gives me more stress and "pushing myself" just lead to further meetings and stress being more involved with other people's problems.
Like a few other commenters here I received an ADHD diagnosis in my early twenties - for this reason college was a significant challenge. My deepest moments of "pushing myself" have come from trying to escape situations or life circumstances that make me deeply unhappy. Supposedly, ADHD sufferers commonly focus anxiety like this - however, this is certainly my vice. Being able to gauge risk and make hard decisions with this anxiety is great - but it comes at a huge personal and social cost.
From a physical exertion perspective, I think we have it. Recovery Time: https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?faq=8ImmxVkZMh4EYYq5Zp2bR8
From a stress level perspective, I think it exists. Body Battery: https://www.garmin.com/en-US/blog/fitness/5-reasons-your-bod...
It took me multiple visits with a therapist to find that I need to have more self-care, otherwise I fall off a cliff. I need to take care of myself to be able to help others. What that is to be able to recognize symptoms and have techniques for coping with the stressors that have become too much.
I still struggle these days. The metrics from the "Body Battery" and "Stress Levels" let me acknowledge that I've had a bad day and need to rest.
I'm saying that the average person could easily push themselves more in the athletic realm. If a dude has been going to the gym for a while and can't bench their body weight or run a few miles they're probably not pushing themselves at all.
This is because that way it is healthier in the long term. The goal isn't to be able to lift a lot in a short period of training time. It is usually to consistenly stay healthy going forward.
But again, that's just my experience. I disagree with you anyway, I even think it would benefit the workforce if there was a third "weekend" day. I think that that would reduce stress and thus increase productivity.
You could just as easily say: "People aren't pushing themselves anywhere close to their limits. If you look at the extremely obese who eat jars of mayo in one sitting or consume tens of thousands of calories a day it's evident that human limits are far higher than what the average person is willing to endure. For the average person they should probably be eating way more."
What is so intrinsically good about reaching one's limits?
There's definitely value in getting out of your comfort zone, but that doesn't have to be hard. IMO it's only worth pushing yourself hard if you really believe in something. Don't do it just because others are pressuring you to do so. Rest when you need it.
The pushing myself towards a goal or exceeding some benchmark wasn't generally stressful ... it was exhausting sure, but more thrilling than stressful. Other times when I've been stressed I haven't really enjoyed it as much as the pushing. I suppose one aspect is intrinsic motivation versus external factors.
The post uses mountains as an imagery to indicate pushing yourself. Even in exactly that endeavour, I've had physical struggle, but have not felt stressed but more in tune with the climb (not a pro level by any stretch) and enjoying it at the bottom of it all.
Any others who think we may be confusing "stress" with "pushing yourself"?
[1] https://charlies-magazines.com/general-adaptation-syndrome/
And if you put a person in a large room with no sound dampening, many people eating chips and typing, and no way to escape it while you try and solve programming problems, you'll go crazy.
Please note this says "your sense of" not "your actual control". This step so often fails for me because I realise I have no actual control over anything relevant, so I get screwed right out of the starting blocks. How are you supposed to develop a sense of control when the idea of any actual control in your life is false?
> It makes you more susceptible to heart disease, it makes it harder to recover from illnesses, it can affect your sleep, and it can even affect your working memory.
If you start experiencing chronic insomnia from chronic stress where you're getting 30 minutes to 2 hours of sleep everyday for weeks... Know that you're not pushing yourself - you're fucking yourself over. You won't remember anything. A couple days will feel like a week. Things that happened a few days ago feel ancient. You'll be living the life of Sisyphus because you will have to redo things because you will inevitably have forgotten what you did.
If you get sick (and you will get sick), you will take months to recover from a simple cold. Your body will eventually shut you down and put you in bed from the stress and simple cold you got. The stress will compound because you are not able to do your basic duties due to the sickness and now you're even more stressed. Stress begets stress - in my experience. It's easy to find your stress levels on a runaway train.
So, now, ask yourself - is it worth it? Is it worth being unable to stay healthy, unable to sleep, unable to even remember anything, and constantly being miserable as fuck just to think you're gonna turn Super Saiyan or some crazy shit if you just push yourself further? (Pro-tip: You won't ever have some anime level breakthrough - those don't happen in real life. That's why it's anime!)
You likely won't. I haven't. I don't think I've had a single breakthrough or meaningful change in my life that came from putting myself through incredibly stressful times. So, IMO, avoid highly stressful situations. They don't really prepare you for anything - they just deal out trauma and set you back.
Some stress can be nice - but if you're like me - your daily stress levels are way higher than most people's. So, your idea of what a "normal" amount of stress is very likely highly distorted. You're probably living - like I am - just one bad day from getting riddled with sickness, insomnia, and amnesia but you don't even realize it because you've thought for so long that this is "normal" or "healthy" or what you should be doing to break through. After all - life is a game... More stress means more XP, right? More XP means higher levels. Higher levels means I can do more. Doing more means more $$$. More $$$ means that house in Palo Alto finally. That house in Palo Alto means someone will finally notice me. Someone finally noticing me means I'll have happiness. Something like that I guess - for the typical HN crowd.
He was talking about something else but I think it's good advice in general
All three may be crucial to become world class at something, but consistency beats the average by a huge margin.
It's important to really understand your psychology around why you want to achieve and why you might want to push yourself. Is it because something is fascinating and you want to sink yourself into it? Is it because reaching some goal will help others in meaningful ways? Is it because others are relying on you? Or that you are afraid they won't like you if you fail?
If your drive is coming from some place negative, then pushing harder isn't gonna fix that. You'll be miserable while you push yourself, and then miserable afterwards when you discover the achievement didn't fill the hole in your heart. But if it's coming from some place positive, it can feel amazing to live up to your potential. For most of us, it's probably a mixture of all of these.
> But humans have evolved this anticipation ability to extend far beyond other animals. We anticipate bad things months, years, or even decades out.
This makes me wonder if part of the reason we anticipate stressors so far out is because we have relatively few near-term ones in today's safe modern society. Maybe if we all went into the savannah and slept in a tent hoping the lions didn't eat us every now and then we'd be less anxious about something ten years down the road.
> What that means is, just knowing you have the option to reduce stress is enough to make something less stressful—even if you’re not actually controlling the stressors at all.
This is such a key point, especially right now in the pandemic. Like another commenter, I like the suggestion to avoid consuming worrying information that isn't actionable. If the asteroid is gonna crash into the Earth either way, you may as well enjoy your time before it hits.
In addition to the pandemic, I've found politics the past couple of years really stressful. One thing I did that helps is set up recurring donations to a few charities that work on issues that matter to me. This way instead of feeling like everything is horrible and I'm sitting here doing nothing about it (which makes me feel guilty too because so much of the horribleness is primarily affecting other people), now I feel like I'm using some of my privilege to help.
> But there are also many productive ones, like exercise or journaling. Making a list of outlets and making sure to return to them again and again can reduce the havoc that chronic stress can wreak on your body.
I do this a lot. Many of my most productive hobbies are really just escapes from outside stress. If I didn't find parenting overwhelming at first, I probably would have never written a textbook on software architecture.
However, I found out the hard way over the holiday break that there is a perilous failure mode. I've obviously been drained by the pandemic, burned out about working from home, and really fucking stressed out about politics and the election. So during the holiday break I told myself I'd spend a bunch of time on my new electronics hobby to unwind.
And then in short succession I broke a tiny part that had been custom 3D-printed and mailed to me, failed to build a module correctly, found out I ordered the wrong parts for a case, and nearly fried my audio interface. It felt like not only was everything external falling apart, but I couldn't even control the things I was supposed to be in control over. I nearly broke down in tears.
I'm better now, but I try to be mindful that when I really need some escapism and artificial control to choose a hobby that I'm more skilled at. Lesson learned.
For rest of the population, they aren’t pushing themselves anywhere near close to their limit. They don’t even know where their limits lie.
People can stress and get ulcers from whatever. But to be wired in a way where you are stressed because you’re not at the top of your game and you think you’re losing it, is a certain kind of personality.
Across the course of a lifespan, the number of people who have pushed themselves that hard is much higher. Some get disillusioned by the process, others get full-on burnout.
That said, the people who have it in their future are not reading persuasive writing about it, and haven't discovered hackernews. Possibly never will. Some of the people who are currently living it are within the HN demographic, but only a fraction, in either sense. So practically speaking this is more of a nostalgia piece for much of HN instead of persuasive writing.
Humans are crazy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature
Beside that: how would we know that wild animals aren’t actually pushing themselves in some way?
But when it's our own evolutionary biology, I think appeal to nature makes perfect sense. It's what we were born to do, literally. Antidepressants and stimulant drugs allow us to bypass this evolution, but at some cost.
Sarcasm aside, what they're really doing when the sun is out in summer: Lying in the sunlight, eating, walking, eating, hiding under a bush, hiding under piece of wood, bathing, etc all the way until they're 80. Quite peaceful animals.
What matters not that you constantly push yourself... it's well-being and that you are in personal equilibrium. Anything else is probably gonna end in a crash some time.
Are you still talking about your pet turtles here? because that lifestyle is not natural for them. If they tried too much lying in the sunlight in the wild they would quickly get eaten by some predator.
My point was more that wild animals do not push themselves in the same way we humans do. There's fulfilling basic needs and stress from disease or predators, but no voluntary exercise beyond what's necessary for finding food/drink or obsession for self-improvement.
I'd be curious if one could teach some smarter animals that they're able to self-improve but that probably requires higher-order thinking...
Human are special (but not unique) in that they keep juvenile features well into adulthood. A phenomenon called neoteny. Playfulness is part of it, and what is playfulness if it isn't "pushing yourself", both are an "unnecessary" expendure of energy.
Also, animals do all sorts of crazy stuff to attract mates.
So yes, humans may be crazy, but they are not the only crazy species on earth. And even if it isn't, that craziness made us quite successful.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_selection_in_mammals
Have you ever watched squirrels go after food in a feeder? Lots of YT videos of people setting up insane obstacle courses that squirrels learn to run through.
Some breeds of dogs are infamous for how hard they work, collies being one.
Heck some species, such as salmon, rely on do or die as the very key of their survival.