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Comment by seertaak | Hacker News Reader

This is really cool. Kudos to Microsoft for really getting open source lately. I wrote an app (which failed miserably) called zenaud.io . When I started writing the app, Apple was hands-down a better developer experience. Now, it's the exact opposite -- MacOS is increasingly painful, throwing up more and more roadblocks and constricting their platform ever more. And Visual Studio is better than Xcode IMO.

Also, as a C++/Python dev - it's increasingly hard not to notice the awesome momentum Rust has garnered.

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OT: I must agree about your comparison of macOS and Windows. IMO Microsoft is doing a lot to improve the developer experience. WSL2 is so freaking good. It has its quirks and it has issues with some workflows, but I’m thinking about moving out of macOS after having tried it.

Apple may have the fastest processor, but Microsoft has the most comfortable tools. Both companies are not perfect, but if we must choose the lesser evil...

Indeed, WSL2 is pretty cool. Also, Windows Terminal is actually pretty sweet, and I even gave PowerShell a spin the other day. The crazy thing is you can basically use it as a bash shell, and it gets the job done. My developer experience right now consists of PowerShell, where I do all my regular directory jumping, editing (vim), etc., and a Developer Shell with god awful classic "terminal" which I only use to call conan/cmake/clang-windows.

I have to add the following: MSVC supports clang on windows. And CMake - all within Visual Studio. And it works perfectly, with perfect support for C++17. Badass.

Visual Studio has supported Developer PowerShell for a while now, and it’s possible to load it into Windows Terminal. It’s just a set of arguments. This blog post explains them: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/visualstudio/say-hello-to-the...

MS has always been solid with developer tools, documentation, and dev relations.

Even though I prefer administering Linux servers any day over Windows servers, I find myself often missing PowerShell when I use bash. It has some quirks but some of the design decisions are exactly what you'd hope someone would make if they redesigned a command-line shell 40 years later.

I still find it comical that we proudly paste around commands that just wrangle text no differently from what perl programmers did in the 90s, using sed, print, cut, etc, when things like PowerShell moved to piping objects between commands. It just removes a whole class of ambiguity.

> 90s

The paradigm of sending text in and out of pipes is ~20 years older than that.

I had actually written an earlier date but then I realized I was talking about Perl :)

I think perl was created in the early 90s, correct?

I believe the annals of history say 87

[0] "1987 - Larry Wall falls asleep and hits Larry Wall's forehead on the keyboard. Upon waking Larry Wall decides that the string of characters on Larry Wall's monitor isn't random but an example program in a programming language that God wants His prophet, Larry Wall, to design. Perl is born."

[0] - http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-m...

+1 for linking such beautiful annals

I misunderstood your post. You are 100% correct about perl.

I understood it as 'shell computing with stdin and stdout streams of characters' instead of structured data coming in and going out.

> MS has always been solid with developer tools, documentation, and dev relations.

in my 25 years of using their tooling and reading their documentation, they've never been more than what just qualifies as borderline acceptable

I booted up VS2019 today for the first time in a while (after waiting 90 minutes for it to install) and it still feels like using a Jetbrains IDE from 15 years ago, and it's still worse than what Borland produced in the 90s

... and it's even slower than IntelliJ IDEA, which just seems amazing as IDEA is written in Java

Agree. going through .Net ans ASP.Net documentation and none of the classes/methods have usage examples except for the super obvious ones (like the "String" class). They just show method signatures and that's it.

It as if the tools were built "by IDE users", "for IDE users".

They may have stagnated but MSDN was, for many, many years, some of the best documentation I had seen anywhere. (Java was pretty solid too, and also PHP).

But maybe I didn't stray too far off the beaten path?

MSDN has a lot of documentation, but it is not easy to use.

I find Visual Studio intolerably slow, I don't quite understand why but it's been bad since at least Visual Studio 2017. Rider and IntelliJ are both much faster and I prefer them.

The documentation is excellent in my experience though. I love it. Visual Studio is really the only Microsoft developer tool I don't like. Even Visual Studio Code is much better.

Why not just install powershell on Linux?

I think they even ship powershell now for non-windows OSs.

> MS has always been solid with developer tools, documentation, and dev relations

The single most heavily used Microsoft dev environment is the Microsoft VBA Editor. It has not had any update in nine years and is virtually unchanged in 22 years since the release of Office 2000, incredibly outdated in terms of usability. It also cannot be replaced by using a text editor like other IDEs can. It is anything but solid.

Except many end up installing VB.NET and using Office COM Automation instead.

Wait until you find out CygWin is a thing for decades and you could've used Linux style under Windows all this time

Not at all the same. Not at all.

I mean sure it’s not, but back in the late 2000s I did everything under it and it made for a great experience. It’s little package manager was handy, everything I needed was there, it worked surprisingly well.

I agree. I recently bailed on WSL because my poor crappy laptop was buckling under the weight of the extra resource demand.

I’m not using Cygwin, but similarly, I decided to trick out my git bash with extra packages from MSYS2. I have all the Linux tools I need, been having a great experience with it.

The amount of resources it takes to run WSL, or a virtual box on older hardware can be devastating. You don’t hear this mentioned much.

WSL1 doesn't use a virtual machine, and only implements Linux syscalls as NT kernel syscalls. There's no VM or OS overhead; WSL1 is 100% userland software, except for the kernel translation stuff.

You should not have any issues with WSL1 in terms of system load or "weight" (whatever the hell that is supposed to mean in computer terms. This is used all the time and I've never once seen a definition for it. What is the unit of measurement? What's the border between "lightweight" and "not lightweight?" This industry as a whole ingests far too many hallucinogens. )

Cygwin offers excellent out-of-the-box GNU userland functionality. It is fast and open-source, with a generous set of packages and languages. I can pin it and have a stable, internally consistent GNU userland. Very good for a developer using several interpreted languages.

Cygwin has its quirks and flaws, like any software. But so does a full distro (Ubuntu, no less) running inside Windows 10.

WSL1 isn't a full distro, it's only the userland stuff. You can also easily make your own userland in Linux, tar it up the deploy it as a WSL environment. It's really nice.

There was even a period of time when Cygwin's X server supported GLX and I managed to get some OpenGL software I wrote for Linux to run in Cygwin, but for some reason it was removed or stopped working.

You can still accomplish this with the cygwin packages xorg-server and xinit. You can then export DISPLAY=:0 in your bash shell and have working OpenGL, e.g. glxgears assuming you have the necessary packages available in your "remote" session/WSL. Here's a GitHub gist I use for this: https://gist.github.com/andrewmackrodt/b53943185bbbd804ef4b0...

What is windows terminal? cmd?

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/terminal/

With its own commercial! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gw0rXPMMPE

No. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Terminal

It's like the the terminals found on Linux. I would give it a recommendation but I still encounter issues with tmux session and mouse (yes I have the latest from github installed). I recommend the terminal in VSCode which works as expected with ssh + tmux.

Windows Terminal is very difficult to work with if one has astigmatism that prevents working with dark background.

I don't usually use Windows, so perhaps I didn't spend enough time on it, but I was unable to create a colourmap with white background that didn't look horrible with some software. No matter how much I changed the colours, there was always some combination that gave me light grey on white or something like that.

If anyone has a colourmap I can use, that would be really appreciated.

I guess it depends. I use the Windows Terminal, and I have high astigmatism and myopia. I find it very readable using the Cascadia Code font. Btw I agree about dark backgrounds being less readable but I can’t get away with light backgrounds because of eye floaters.

I'm astigmatic but I never noticed any issue with dark backgrounds, not only in Windows Terminal, I didn't know it could happen

I don't think it happens to everybody with astigmatism. I cannot read any text with black background. After a very short amount of time I'm unable to read anything, and once I take my eyes off the screen it feels as though I've been staring into the sun.

There used to be a great Firefox plugin that allowed me to change the colours of web pages that use black background, but it doesn't work anymore, and I haven't found a good replacement.

This has to do with screen glare. A matte screen might treat you better.

I only use matte screens. It definitely isn't that though. I didn't mean to say that black screens are too bright, that wouldn't make any sense.

What I tried to explain was the sensation, not the actual effect. It was a really bad example, I agree.

Here's the colormap I use, which I've made sure never has too-bright colors on the near-white background: https://pastebin.com/raw/AdR3sBSs

Microsoft publish a tool in the Windows Terminal GitHub repo, ColorTool.exe[1], which can turn iTerm2 color scheme files into Windows Terminal ones. That might be your best bet because there are huge repositories of good iTerm2 schemes[2] and really slick tools to quickly make your own with live previews.[3]

[1] https://github.com/Microsoft/Terminal/tree/main/src/tools/Co...

[2] https://github.com/mbadolato/iTerm2-Color-Schemes

[3] https://terminal.sexy/

Buying Microsoft for it's OS and Apple for it's hardware? What is this opposite day?

> WSL2 is so freaking good.

I am on WSL1 two things hold me back from upgrading

1. How's networking? I go on and off VPNs quite a bit.

2. How's cross system access to files especially performance wise? I edit with phpstorm for windows, I share the files with Slack also windows, I access the same files with WSL git, LAMP stack and more.

1. Just works. Only issue I found is that Wsl2 will not update its dns resolver IPs when connecting to the vpn. There's a workaround script. So it's either exit the terminal and re enter it or run the script to update them.

2. This is my current pain. Windows file system is slow already and accessing it from wsl adds an overhead. Ideally I keep projects in Wsl2 storage and IDEs in Windows. I searched a lot for a solution but haven't found one. On the other hand, Wsl2 Linux storage speed runs circles around wsl1.

I use X410 and run tools from inside of WSL2 by exporting the display. Works well for Emacs, JetBrains Rider, and every other GUI application I've tried so far.

Concur. X410 is great and survives where xming and vcxsrv both crash for me. It's not free but the "not crashing" feature makes it well worth the $10 I paid for it.

That sounds excellent: I’ll have to give it a shot. VSCode under WSL2 with its Docker support is neat, but can be slow due to the storage system overhead. This might solve that for my team!

I never had an issue with WSL1 until some bizarre bug that cropped up seemingly out of nowhere in which I would blue-screen during some Rust compilation. I didn't have the issue after maybe four or six months of using Rust in WSL1 until suddenly I did. Upgrading to WSL2 fixed the problem.

Publishing Rust crates does require a workaround[0] in WSL2 if it's from a Windows directory. That's annoying but pretty infrequent (for me) and not a difficult workaround.

Except for those two issues, I've not had any problems in either WSL version - certainly nothing that would give me pause to using either one.

[0] https://github.com/rust-lang/cargo/issues/8439#issuecomment-...

re 2) try NFS exports on either host windows or WSL2. i've used an nfs mount inside WSL2 and it works very well. don't put it in /etc/fstab, though - for me it caused a WSL2 hard lock on start.

> As a rule of thumb, WSL 2 accessing host (NTFS) files is about 5 times slower than WSL 1 accessing those same files.

https://vxlabs.com/2019/12/06/wsl2-io-measurements/

> Apple may have the fastest processor, but Microsoft has the most comfortable tools.

It doesn't matter how fast the M1 is if XCode can't keep up with modern development tools. I don't understand how Apple developers produce any software with it, the experience is truly awful compared to nearly every alternative. It's slow, buggy and inscrutable. How long does it take to onboard a fresh grad at Apple, I wonder?

I have an existing app in Swift and Interface Builder. I hate xCode. Simple things like deploying the app to a device is hit or miss (usually miss). Is there a development environment that I could use for my app which is better? Happy to use any platform (MacOS, Linux, Windows).

App Code is probably the only thing worth checking out. Swift isn't a useful language outside of the Apple ecosystem and interface builders come and go, usually go (design in Figma/Adobe products, implement in Code rather than UI wysiwyg)

I think IDEs may be a bit more subjective than are often presented. Personally speaking, my experience with Xcode has been just ok (not amazing) while IntelliJ based IDEs have been clunky and arcane, with some of their "smarts" functioning in ways that aren't expected or intuitive at all. Both are functional if you let me pick which to spend a work day in, it'd probably be Xcode.

What one is first exposed to and how they're exposed to it probably makes a big difference.

"Apple may have the fastest processor, but Microsoft has the most comfortable tools. Both companies are not perfect, but if we must choose the lesser evil..."

It's very fast for a low power, laptop-focused processor and even then only truly excels at single-threaded workloads. It's out classed by AMD mobile offerings (4900HS and 4800U) in multi-threaded workloads on most tests[0]. If you step up to desktop processors, the top end processors like the AMD 5950X are in a different class of multi-threaded performance.

Don't get me wrong, it's an exceptional processor and incredibly fast for its sub-25W TDP.

[0] - https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-teste...

This is simply a matter of adding more cores...I mean, I would hope the 5950x with its 16 full strength cores would be better than an M1 with it's big/little design...

I don't think it's as simple as adding more cores. Maybe the M1 doesn't scale up nicely.

We’ll find out this year.

Looking at the die shot [1], they have plenty of space for cores and cache if they remove the GPU. Surely it's not that simple, but I believe they should be able scale to at least 8+4 cores without large interconnect changes, and at that point they are already knocking on the 5900X's door.

[1] - https://images.anandtech.com/doci/16226/M1.png

I would suspect by the time that product releases, AMD will be allowed some 5nm fab capacity for a future Zen product release.

Unleash all your handcuffs and move directly to Linux. It will be really refreshing!

Please know that networking in WSL2 is a nightmare if working in a VPN. We are currently staying in WSL1 because the internet wont work in WSL2 under the corporate VPN.

Did you try this https://esc.sh/blog/wsl2-no-internet-vpn/?

cisco anyconnect is notorious for that. you have to bump its interface metric above a certain value so WSL2 network or whatever does the routing can do its work.

>This is really cool. Kudos to Microsoft for really getting open source lately

If they get open source so much it means not open sourcing what really matters is intentional. And quite frankly getting rid of patents, their litigiousness and data collection. But I'm asking too much and I would settle for them to just stop suffocating competitors, innovation and stop with vendor lock in. Same deal for their competitors.

Anything that really matters is just like the same old MS you know. DirectX, Office, Xbox, everything SaaS, IDE, compilers, debuggers, language servers, file formats, UI frameworks, UI patents, GitHub, Windows, Server, you'll find examples in every area. Practices like buying or killing competitors like Vulkan related acquisitions. I get it they are a company and need to maximize profits, so it's cool.

Microsoft has so many quality projects and good people working for them, it's just so frustrating that it's still like this. This will only get worse as the exploitative behavior and business models of their competitors like Google force their hand to do the same.

"By joining the Open Invention Network, Microsoft is offering its entire patent portfolio to all of the open-source patent consortium's members."

https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-open-sources-its-ent...

Apple had "1,996 total patents granted between July 1, 2019 and June 1, 2020, more than any other company in Silicon Valley."

https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2020/07/27/top-of-t...

My recollection from previous OIN threads was that it came with a lot of caveats. I can't comment any further from lack of knowledge about patents and its subtleties. Would love to see an analysis of what really happened in practice since they did that.

Microsoft joined the open invention network; a defensive patent pool protecting Linux (kernel and distributions). This directly cut into their patent revenue and removed some of their leverage towards Android OEM's. This matters a lot to the android and wider Linux ecosystem.

Moreover, every single Microsoft patent will now be used to fight against any patent claim concerning Linux, related open source software, and a limited set of codecs. [0]

Given the recent inclusion of an exFAT driver in Linux, this hurt MS's business even more.

[0] https://openinventionnetwork.com/linux-system/

Moreover, every single Microsoft patent will now be used to fight against any patent claim concerning Linux, related open source software, and a limited set of codecs.

Did Microsoft contribute all of their patents to the OIN? I seem to recall IBM only contributed a specific subset back in the day.

According to the zdnet article I posted in a sibling comment, they did contribute all their patents, which is about 60,000 of them. They gave up significant licensing revenue.

Did they?

Is there a breakdown somewhere of their patent licensing revenue from Linux licensees, and the legal expenses they have in enforcing it?

Did they give up Linux patent licenses from Android makers? They had billions coming in from Samsung and LG in the past but that was all under NDAs, we don’t know what patents were under discussion.

I have no idea what their legal expenses were, but they explicitly said it covered all their patents. The link I posted mentions Android as something that would be covered.

All core MS products are the result of some level of backstabbing.

Apple + Microsoft. Expected: Macintosh apps. Actual: Windows

IBM + Microsoft. Expected: OS/2. Actual: MS NT kernel

Sybase + Microsoft. Expected: Sybase SQL server. Actual: MS SQL Server

Sun + Microsoft. Expected: Sun Java. Expected: .NET Framework

OpenGL ARB + Microsoft. Expected: OpenGL. Actual: Direct3D.

Also see what happened with Xamarin and Corel Office for Linux, DR-DOS, etc.

But hey, they bought Github and open sourced an Electron based editor so we have to worship them now.

Imagine you hire someone to do something for you and they end up stealing your business model and market share. That is Microsoft in a nutshell.

I cannot call those backstabbing. They are more of the results of market competition.

This wasn't team 1 vs team 2.

It was one team splitting half-way and taking everything from the other.

Explain how it was like that in the case of NT.

IBM went their own way with OS/2 and Microsoft hired Dave Cutler from Digital to develop NT over several years. Windows NT is not OS/2. It never was.

That is a mischaracterization of what happened.

Microsoft unilaterally changed the OS/2 3.0 API to the match the Windows API, IBM did not approve of that, and then the project split, with the Microsoft version of OS/2 3.0 becoming Windows NT.

It’s not happening anymore, partly because of reputation and partly because they’re no longer the 800lbs gorilla they once were - but the “Microsoft kiss of death” was a thing - cooperating with Microsoft often resulted in great damage to the other company.

SGI; Nokia; Sando; Spry; there were many others through the years.

Nokia have themselves to blame, with the internal teams competition and the board promising an hefty bonus to Elop if he managed to do what he did, selling the mobile business unit.

Similar examples can be given for other IT giants.

> Sun + Microsoft. Expected: Sun Java. Expected: .NET Framework

Well, they tried doing Java (in their own way), we got .NET because Sun sued them (rightfully so). I'm happy we got .NET though.

All the technologies listed above are good from a technological standpoint. My critique is about corporate ethics rather than whether or not those technologies are good or convenient.

Many years ago I worked developing on Windows 7, using C# and MS SQL Server, and had a satisfactory experience at that time. I can see how that convenience has captivated many users.

But knowing how those technologies came to be makes a difference for me.

For example, Direct3D can be great, but the resulting vendor lock prevents other operating systems like Linux from getting game releases. There was a time where OpenGL was the most popular graphics library, but Microsoft frightened OpenGL users and told them that in future Windows releases, OpenGL would go through a compatibility layer with a significant performance cost and that they should switch to Direct3D. As a result, now everyone uses Direct3D.

Fortunately, projects like dxvk have implemented Direct3D on top of Vulkan and now many projects like Wine and Proton use it to run games using Direct3D on Linux.

> There was a time where OpenGL was the most popular graphics library

Contrary to urban myths it never had a place on the game consoles.

> open sourced an Electron based editor

VSCode may be open source, but the .NET Core plugin bits inside aren't, so in practice the open sourceness is debatable.

to be fair, apple stole the technology that they gave microsoft.

Apple lawfully licensed technology from the Xerox PARC from Xerox. Xerox knew they were licensing the technology, with the likely objective of copying it. That's a substantial difference with respect to what Microsoft did.

Xerox's decision is considered dumb, but they were told exactly what was going to be done. The executives were stupid enough to agree because they did not want to hear about anything other than photocopiers and toners.

Microsoft on the other hand was initially a close Apple partner, developing the Z-80 SoftCard for Apple II and then helping develop applications for the Macintosh. Once they gained enough trust, they used that trust to clone the Macintosh (Windows 1.0).

> IBM + Microsoft. Expected: OS/2. Actual: MS NT kernel

Not entirely true, because in fact NT is heavily "inspired" by VMS, that Dave Cutler, the main architect of NT kernel, used to work in DEC as a technical fellow. This is also one of the reason DEC Alpha can run Windows NT out of the box, as it is quite similar to VMS in nature.

> Anything that really matters is just like the same old MS you know.

I have been hearing this kind of thing for years, and I just don't get it.

Microsoft has turned around completely, becoming a huge open-source contributor. They committed all their patents to OIN. They make .NET Core available for MacOS and Linux (including open-source). They are noticeably absent from the congressional hearings of the other huge tech companies who have been bad players.

And yet we hear that they're "the same old MS". I get that no company is perfect, but in all honesty, what could Microsoft do that would change your perspective on them? And do you hold other companies (FAANG) do the same standard?

>what could Microsoft do that would change your perspective on them?

I mean it's really complicated. For starters I'd like them to stop forcing people to use their bad products just because they were there first to lock down the market and or abused their position. This is still happening today.

Then I'll be more open to use their good products, and there's plenty of that. I want to be excited when MS announces a new technology, not to be reminded of how bad they behave as a company and the negative impact they have on my life.

>And do you hold other companies (FAANG) do the same standard?

Yes. At least with e.g. Apple and Google I can just not use their products, but with Google it's getting harder and harder as they monopolize the web and close/lock Android even more. Google removed don't be evil from their motto, MS should change theirs to We love open source when it's convenient. Nothing wrong with doing manipulative PR like everyone else, but don't be surprised when some people don't want to drink it.

I agree with everything you've said, except

>Nothing wrong with doing manipulative PR like everyone else[.]

Just because everyone does something doesn't make it right.

I agree with you.

1. I run Arch Linux on windows vis WSL which provides pacman as a package manager. Pacman is way better than homebrew.

2. Docker runs much faster on windows compared to Mac.

3. My Mac will freeze up at times, while ctrl+alt+del always works on windows.

4. I am no longer limited to the crappy gpu options on Mac and can actually do gaming on my laptop.

Agreed. BTW if you're looking for a apt/brew like experience on Windows proper, try chocolatey: https://chocolatey.org/

(Obviously there's also the Windows store, which is not bad for GUI programs, but for more developer-type stuff - e.g. installing python - chocolatey is great.)

I love chocolatey and use it quite a bit. But I like Arch Linux's AUR more because it contains way more packages. Though Microsoft also seems to be on their way to make their own

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/windows-package-m...

It's a different use case - use Chocolatey to manage native windows installers - it's more like brew casks.

Hasn't WinGet superceded Choco of late?

WinGet isn't publicly available yet.

Isn't it? https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli

Scoop is a good option too IMO.

I prefer scoop myself. Everything is isolated to the users profile. Check it out.

https://scoop.sh/

+1 for docker under Wsl2 is way better than macos

You might enjoy the backstory to the Windows task manager:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23304536

If you find yourself in a Mac again I'd really recommend nix over homebrew

For what it’s worth, the GPU thing can be solved using an eGPU on Intel macs — but the thermal throttling and CPU perf basically killed that dead in the water for me; I was running an RX 590 which worked brilliantly, but gaming itself was lacking sadly.

Gave up and built a mini ITX box next to my laptop. Swap DisplayPort, swap one USB-C, done!

Apple are throwing more roadblocks at least partly because developers are becoming more and more deplorable, trying to claw every penny they can by collecting and selling every bit of metadata (or even data) they can get their claws on. Microsoft aren't throwing similar roadblocks at least partly because they're one of the deplorables people need protection from.

All big software corporations use open source strategically: keep the core money-makers closed, release tooling and other trinkets for developers so that they do some free advertising for the company. They also release expensive-to-develop software for free to destroy competitors and expand their influence.

> throwing up more and more roadblocks and constricting their platform ever more

Do you have any specific examples? From my perspective as an app user, rather than developer, the restrictions they've put in place seem to be beneficial to me. I like sandboxed apps, absolutely love that I can tell an app to bugger off when it tries to access some folder that it has no business reading.

I am an Apple/Linux diehard, but Visual Studio has always been superior to Xcode imho.

What about GNU? It seems like most Windows-ₗusing devs use WSL2’s Linux VM. What advantages does that have over keeping the MS OS’s forced updates, BSODs, etc. in a VM, while keeping a free OS stably settled on bare metal?

I can imagine drivers, but if you stick to only Dell Developer Edition, Lenovo Linux-certified, Purism Librem, System76, or similar (still significantly wider selection than Apple s̶h̶e̶e̶p̶ fans seem satisfied with) hardware, things should work more smoothly than with Windows (drivers are built into the kernel and update with the OS).

It seems like most Windows users use WSL2’s Linux VM.

Most Windows users haven't got a clue what Linux is let alone WSL2.

Or that Rust isn’t iron oxide. I’ve edited that line to be clearer, and I’ll link definitions for all the other words ~~if someone will show me a pastebin that will hold the 583732 byte file I’ve just created for shell (xargs & dict) practice for free~~ Edit: https://ghostbin.com/paste/kgwWc.

> I can imagine drivers, but if you stick to only Dell Developer Edition, Lenovo Linux-certified, Purism Librem, System76, or similar (still significantly wider selection than Apple s̶h̶e̶e̶p̶ fans seem satisfied with) hardware

I don't need a huge selection, but I do need polished hardware that I can walk into a store and try out before buying. Just things like the feel of the keyboard or the trackpad can make a system a nightmare to use if they're bad. I also need to be confident that I'm not going to get given the runaround if a piece of hardware (e.g. docking station or monitor) doesn't work with the machine.

> things should work more smoothly than with Windows (drivers are built into the kernel and update with the OS).

That's actually one of the things that worries me the most about Linux - I can't pin a driver to a version that's working, and if the kernel drops support for my hardware then I have to choose between losing support for my hardware or never upgrading my OS. I was excited for GNU/kFreeBSD up until the point where systemd arrived and destroyed all the advantages of free OSes.

> I do need polished hardware that I can walk into a store and try out

Doesn’t this apply to my first two suggestions? The Dell XPS Developer Edition is the same hardware as the Windows version, just with Ubuntu preinstalled. And Dell has upstreamed the drivers. Similar with Lenovo hardware, except IIUC they haven’t started shipping Linux preinstalled yet, you just buy a normal Thinkpad and install your distro of choice. Purism has a basic return policy, though IIUC you have to pay shipping and, if there’s no hardware defect, a 10% restocking fee: https://puri.sm/policies/. System76 has a 30-Day Limited Money Back Guarantee linked in their websites footer: https://system76.com/warranty (^f 30 and hit enter a couple times).

> if the kernel drops support for my hardware

Is there precedent for this? It still supports 32-bit CPUs long after most people have upgraded — indeed certain distros like Ubuntu have stopped supporting them, but there are probably hundreds of other distros that haven’t done that¹, like Devuan, which also champions init freedom and maintains a list of a ~two dozen Free distros/OSes that don’t force systemd: https://www.devuan.org/os/init-freedom

¹Edit: Distrowatch lists 40 active distros that support i386, 102 active that don’t use systemd, and 25 active (and 115 non-active) that meet both of those criteria : https://distrowatch.com/search.php?ostype=All&category=All&o...

> Doesn’t this apply to my first two suggestions? The Dell XPS Developer Edition is the same hardware as the Windows version, just with Ubuntu preinstalled. And Dell has upstreamed the drivers. Similar with Lenovo hardware, except IIUC they haven’t started shipping Linux preinstalled yet, you just buy a normal Thinkpad and install your distro of choice.

Drivers make a lot of difference to the feel of a trackpad, I wouldn't want to buy without testing the actual drivers. I wanted to like the XPS but its keyboard felt too rubbery to me. The idea of buying something and then shipping it back really doesn't appeal to me (I'm not from the US and the idea of just returning stuff isn't so much in our culture); I really want to go to an actual showroom-like store, try out a bunch of different laptops, and then walk away with the one I like, and I accept paying a premium for that. (I'm sure others will feel different, and maybe I'm not being reasonable; just trying to describe where I'm coming from).

> Is there precedent for this?

Yes, I've had three different pieces of hardware go unsupported in Linux (Logitech QuickCam USB - eventually support reappeared in a different driver; Asus A730W PDA; an old Hauppauge TV tuner card). Linux is openly really hostile about out-of-tree drivers (no stable API as a matter of policy) which the first two were, but even in-tree drivers are aggressively deprecated (the Hauppauge driver was one of those). I switched to FreeBSD on my home server because I was just fed up with all the churn of Linux and it's been a lot better.

And meanwhile, GNU/Linux continues to be better than both. I love developing on a system made by developers.

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