QAnon Is Destroying the GOP from Within | Hacker News Reader

QAnon Is Destroying the GOP from Within

theatlantic.com

49 pointsshin_lao38 comments

The common theme here is that media outlets are not good at regulating their own hysteria for the public good, and we're all left as collateral damage. Maybe we can bring back some orderly rules around broadcasting of controversial opinions. The FCC Fairness Doctrine was eliminated in 1987 and there was an attempt to reintroduce it in 2019. Maybe it deserves reconsideration.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/116/hr4401

Defining fairness is tough, there are serious free speech concerns, and I don’t want a Trump-esque administration’s FTC deciding what’s “fair”.

A Fairness Doctrine would require mainstream media to present QAnon's side of things equally with anti-QAnon. This doesn't help the QAnon folks, since they're still mad they're being censored (that's part of the thing, they're always censored, and there's a thousand videos they can show you to prove it). And it exposes people who otherwise wouldn't be to their views, as if they were accepted. I don't anticipate a fairness doctrine making people less prone to conspiracy -- it worked in 1987 because TV was the main source of news, but most "news" is not on TV or in print, it's on YouTube.

It would likely require proportionate rather than equal coverage. That's how it works in Ireland anyway (though not always uncontroversially - it's a hard thing to get right all the time). Fringe or extreme opinions don't automatically get credulous airtime.

That's my understanding of how the Fairness Doctrine was supposed to work. Legitimized opinions are required for consideration. If they are not legitimized, then it will be a little harder for them to gain traction in the first place. Policies like these, while imperfect, can help to serve as a brake pump on the outlandish.

The Fairness Doctrine was somewhat justifiable for broadcast TV because spectrum limits only allowed for a small number of channels. But with cable TV and the Internet that limit no longer applies.

His point that conspiracy theories are acting as a substitute for religious community and purpose is interesting. I guess there are a number of different belief systems that can fill a void of purpose.

That point should be driven home by the fact that the chronic religious ignorance of the US is the bedrock on top of which QAnon is built. You can't openly support ignorance about basic facts about reality for hundreds of years and expect this to have no consequences.

Americans need to learn basic facts about religion in school. Separation of church and state does not mean everyone must grow up ignorant. It means the state shouldn't promote one religion over another (which the US is doing anyway).

No , what we need is basic common sense. Too much of anything is bad and as a nation we have a historical tendency to take things to extreme. We need to understand and acknowledge each other’s point of view and realize there is a sane middle path based on due diligence and rational investigation.

People make this argument a lot. But tell me how to do this in practice on a large scale?

My suggestion is timely, measurable, and proven.

How is this possible that QAnon, which is literally just random text fragments, became something that breaks something like the GOP?

The start is long before QAnon. Birtherism, Tea Party, Limbaugh and Hannity. Many things led here.

Indeed! Birtherism is arguably how Trump became a high-profile politician, the Tea Party is how the GOP lost control of its nominations, and there wouldn’t have been either Birtherism or Tea Party without the likes of Limbaugh and Hannity stoking flames - and Fox News exists because Newt Gingrich showed there was a market for right-wing extremists in the ‘90s, a market that had fed on shock-jock radio in the late ‘80s... It takes time to develop a popular ideological framework, but once it’s entrenched it is bound to reach some of its goals (in this case, to riot against Congress).

30-plus years of social priming sure helps. You can peg this to Newt, or Goldwater in 64, if you want to go back a step, but at some point in the postwar 20th century the republican party decided to court insanity for votes, and now the inmates are running the asylum.

For the moral indignation claims of Q, you can go back much further, if you like. QAnon is a thinly covered and warmed over blood libel, and we’ve had that particular bit of malign story with us since ... at least Carthage? Probably a lot longer. So it’s an idea that has a very long history of being one that is very good at worming its way into brains and staying there.

Because the GOP thought it was a good idea to appeal to different groups of nutjobs to build their base of political support. They thought the nutjobs were easily controllable and they are right. They did not realize that somebody else other than them could take control of the nutjobs. And to be fair to them, before the internet it would have not be possible to do that. But now in the 21st century, everyone can appeal to nutjobs and start a cult over the internet.

Your thesis is the sound of one hand clapping.

It's one thing for the elites to disdain Trump. It's quite another for them to do so without saying precisely why, and declining to offer a coherent alternative.

I didn't mention Trump, and Trump has nothing to do with what I am saying.

Yet the orange elephant will continue to dominate the room.

We can factor out That Five Character Symbol, and point to the fundamental discussion of whether "We The People" actually matter anymore.

Look at how Christianity emerged as a persecuted group, or used persecution as a form of organization.

We are mostly watching what it would be like to witness a religion evolve in real time. Most religions believe in some pretty crazy shit too, and I challenge anyone to find the difference between believing in a pedo ring in a pizza store vs the day of judgement and the layers of hell, angels, demons, resurrection, etc.

Nothing new is happening here.

Anyways, I think the belief in some of the crazy qanon stuff is a subconscious manifestation of their true nasty dispositions. The raw beliefs are probably embedded in racism, and it’s driving that subset rotten so much so that it is manifesting in a mutated outgrowth of a similarly nasty conspiracy (pedo rings, dominion by a lizard class).

It’s the same with religion, if you give it to mostly naive and dim witted people you will get dim witted beliefs and customs.

It’s the same with giving someone an elite education in a proper field, you get a highly useful member of society.

The rottenness of their basic beliefs is metastasizing into these forms that feel obvious to me. Believing in lizard dominators is no different than being unabashedly racist in this day and age, pure dysfunction. Hell, I’ll even suggest believing in semi-human demon form of a lizard person out to harm you is poetic licensing of racism, the belief in another human that isn’t exactly you and something to be feared, to be dealt with.

> just random text fragments

Modus operandi of every religion, it was written. Just random shit that was written over ages. Why would the GOP be particularly susceptible to it? Well why wouldn’t they be? Their bread and butter base was always the evangelical or some form of white Christian. That’s a specific type of person through and through. Why wouldn’t this group be the ones that gravitate to this stuff?

A group of people that believe in the greatest conspiracy of all time about a deity, running things in a planned way, with all kinds of backstory and lore about the purpose of humanity, and yet we’re all shocked they gobbled up another equally laughable conspiracy. They’ve remixed their beliefs, god running the world and finding his true believers is repurposed in Trump secretly rallying his true believers against a world order that seeks to harm them. It’s not even original, they are just manifestations of racism embedded in the reality of a globalized world that is economically weakening them. Can we follow the money here?

It’s the same exact people guys, why is our memory so lenient?

>A group of people that believe in the greatest conspiracy of all time about a deity, running things in a planned way, with all kinds of backstory and lore about the purpose of humanity, and yet we’re all shocked they gobbled up another equally laughable conspiracy.

Everyone on some level is aware that they are going to be deceived for their own good. There's no other way to go to church, or pay taxes.

>I challenge anyone to find the difference between believing in a pedo ring in a pizza store vs the day of judgement and the layers of hell, angels, demons, resurrection, etc.

Pizza stores exists. Some owners/operators of them engage in crimes. Pedophiles exists. Given the number of both it wouldn't be plausible for there not to be a pizza store owner/operator who is also a pedophile.

Pedophile networks for (some of the) rich and powerful exists and they have to source their victims somewhere and abduct them. While it wouldn't have to be a pizza joint that is used for cover (a laundromat or some other small business would work just as well) there isn't a good reason to not use a pizza joint.

There is no evidence at all of hell, angles, demons and there is no way you can have ghosts haunting places where they were abused or treated unfairly and not have any at Auschwitz, yet nobody has ever taken a picture of any there.

That is very interesting conclusion.

I would disagree a bit on that qanon is exactly the same as religion. Qanon feels like a leaderless cult that is morphing into most extreme (thus most outlandish) claims and believes.

But I don't think there is any solid core tenet at heat there.

Modern religions are always focused at afterlife and the provide you with a way to get there.

Qanon is more a way for morons to feel smart. They create a world where they are the smart one and everyone else is a looser. This feels like a coping mechanism to me.

Maybe it could grow into a religion or a cult but i don't think it is as of now.

Sure, I think there’s a lot of validity to digging into the psychological roots of this.

When we say it’s morons trying to feel smart, it’s really no different than what we say at the more civil level where we invalidate their concerns as a group and call them uneducated (the really dismissive ‘white college uneducated’ label). It’s a Scarlett letter that devalues your opinion or your existence.

In other words, calling them a moron (which I’ve done already) for believing in qanon is no different than calling them ‘not so smart, look no college degree’ when they bring up immigration policy concerns. What difference does it make to them at this point, or further, to us? They’ve been exiled from the discussion and they feel that way.

This will manifest in some way.

QAnon is pretty weird, but the idea that Russia was secretly manipulating every aspect of American society was also pretty bizarre, I mean looking in from the outside across the pond in Europe. There wasn't really any evidence for either idea but the Russia conspiracy ate the Democrats - if anything, far worse than QAnon has eaten the Republicans. Indeed given the demographics of HN I'm guessing someone will reply to this post and claim that "The 2016 election was rigged by the Russians" or "Russians controlled Trump" etc was all totally true and not a bizarre conspiracy theory at all. The descent of US political parties into fantastical theorising is a general trend.

Both groups are internalizing after trauma. They say children that go through abuse and trauma in childhood start to internalize and develop compulsive fantasy worlds as a defense mechanism (or rather we all do it via escapism - avoidance, drug abuse, paranoia, compulsive behavior, all anti-social outgrowths).

It’s really hard for the left to remain mature and fight rationally. They have given up on doing that and taken on the ‘if you can’t beat them, join them’ strategy where they are now using the same right-wing nonsense conspiracy tactics to rile up the base.

The right has fully internalized as a traumatized child into madness. They’re political capital was wasted on a party that used them to goto war, bailout banks, not buff up or protect the working class. They are betrayed, and like an abused child, fully cocooned themselves from rationally considering the circumstances. Even when they actually evolve and reject pro-war platforms (you know , the right wing actually adjusted and fixed this), they are unable to formulate their economic concerns in a non-racist way. They are exhausted and beaten down, and basically need rehab.

They literally need a breather, but the Republican machine won’t give them that and will rile them up against everything Biden/Dems will do for the next four years. It’s viscous stuff, reminds me of a bipolar kid I remember from elementary school where all the kids would just rile him up knowing he’d eventually start throwing chairs uncontrollably. It’s callous as fuck, there’s no love amongst ourselves at all.

There are no healthy adults at the table at the moment.

The Muller report details quite a lot of evidence actually.

Evidence of what? Don't be vague.

Few on the right pay attention to the Qanon meme. In contrast leftists believ most, if not all, conservatives are rabid Qanon faithful. But Qanon is a myth concocted by the left for the left.

As I've stated earlier, the left simply generates an endless sequence of lies, publishes (or yells them) them awhile and then abandons them when the next lie is concocted for publication or if the lie falls flat in the public eye.

No autopsy, no inquest is ever performed on the left's past outrageous lies. If you ask them about the "Russian conspiracy" they'll ignore you and shout about the rightist "insurrection", their latest meme.

The left is, essentially, a mob:

"The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind Paperback – December 24, 2016 by Gustave Le Bon"

https://www.amazon.com/Crowd-Study-Popular-Mind/dp/163600016...

Why should I summarize the report? I was responding to the claim that “there was no evidence of Russian influence in the election and collaboration by the Trump campaign”. That claim is demonstrably false. Muller did find evidence, and people went to jail for lying to hide the evidence. The president could not be convicted because the DoJ internal policy prohibits filing charges against a sitting president.

I am not ignoring or shouting about any red herring diversion. Read the report. Read the court proceedings that sent Flynn or Stone to prison.

There actually is hard evidence of direct Russian manipulation and the Mueller report’s overall conclusion was that there was extensive manipulation:

“ The Mueller report found that the Russian government "interfered in the 2016 presidential election in sweeping and systematic fashion" and "violated U.S. criminal law". The report relayed two methods by which Russia attempted to influence the election. “

Mueller could not find hard evidence of Trump colluding although he had clear evidence of obstruction. This obstruction when also considering Trump’s very unusually obsequious deference to Putin, including them meeting multiple times with no other US official present, something completely unprecedented, is a lot of smoke.

On the other hand can you show a single shred of evidence backing a Qanon conspiracy?

On one side you have a series of conspiracy theories that have continually been disproven from a completely anonymous source, and on the other you have hard evidence from investigations and actual events that you can view online. You have to be pretty dense in my opinion to not see the difference.

What hard evidence? I don't actually trust the US government or its appointees to reasonably handle that particular theory because, like I said, it basically ate half the US political system and most of Washington culture to a far wilder extent than QAnon has done.

If there is really hard, compelling evidence, then what is it? I ask because for years (until I tuned it out) I would research and fact check claims about Russian interference of various types, and they always fell apart on close inspection. It was cry wolf, over and over. For instance the original claims were quite specific that Putin tried to rig the 2016 election for Trump via social media manipulation. Then Facebook produced a pile of supposedly "Russian ads" that were just random shitposting and didn't clearly support either party. As is usually seen in conspiracy theories, when a central pillar collapses the theory just instantly mutates, so very quickly the narrative changed to be "they're sowing division to make us hate each other". Why would Putin do this? Aren't Americans doing a good enough job of that themselves? What about other countries that might have similar motives? None of these questions were ever explored. It's just obviously motivated reasoning on a massive scale.

People keep believing something that has no ties to reality and reality inevitably snaps back. If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, that may have been the point of QAnon from the start.

Sorry for this tangent.

But I still to do this day don't know if " Trump is a russian asset" theory true. Are parts of it true? I know bunch of people went to jail and stuff. I want to research this but there so much out there i get even more confused.

How should i think about this whole 'russian collusion' thing? Seems like it completely fell off media radar when covid showed up on the scene. Is putin really behind whats going on in USA.

Seth Abramson wrote a few books about this, extensively researched.

I have to read few books to really understand it?

'Trump is an russian asset' . How can it not be a yes/no question, he either is or isn't.

I dont understand why I need to read few books. What can't someone just tell me the answer to the question.

Edit: Looks like even the Atlantic thinks that Abramson is a conspiracy theorist

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/liberal...

Because heavy allegation require heavy evidence, not lies about something unfounded.

Okay but can you give me at least an opening statement equivalent of this case?

Like when a prosecutor says that they will demonstrate that how the defendant stalked the victim for days before committing the murder and he was observed by many witnesses disposing the murder weapon in the woods.

Yes. Why not give the Mueller report a read? Annotated versions are widely available, e.g. [1]. Alternatively, or perhaps additionally, give Sarah Kendzior's Hiding In Plain Sight [1] a read. It is a quick but exceedingly well-researched and well-documented read which neatly summarises the travesty that the Trump administration has been.

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/politics/read-t...

[1] https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250245397

> Yes.

I don't have a deep interest in the topic to read about it. I just wanted to know the conclusion. I'll take your word for it, thank you, thats all i needed to know.

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