Parisian Accent in 1912
franceculture.fr
franceculture.fr
Turns out understanding a heavy Auvergnat accent is... difficult! I wrestled with the accent a couple of weeks, but after a while it 'clicked'. This was pretty much a matter of 'waking up and not having to translate it in your mind', a very strange sensation. I learned to distinct several accents: Parisian and Marseillais are different beasts, and Swiss-french is also different (I totally dig their counting system though, septante, huitante et nonante makes so much more sense).
Also, I learned that the french in school is nothing like the french they speak in France. Sure, you get by and they'll understand you, but french relies heavy on vernacular, sayings and expressions.
Nowadays people think I'm a Walloon (French-speaking from Belgium, while I'm Dutch), which is a great compliment to me!
As for the accents, I had a similar experience when moving around from Berlin to Munich to Mainz with regard to the "clicking". It's like my brain suddenly recalibrated to understand the vowel and consonant changes in the accent (and particularly in certain areas the parts of the words that simply were dropped off the beginning/end of the word).
People often tell me "Wow, I wish I was good at languages like you" and I honestly want them to understand how I feel: I didn't learn German, I simply spent enough time in the language for my brain to catch up and learn it for me.
(JK ;) )
I am jealous of my American friends who speak with heavy accents and receive praise about their mastery.
Staten Island has a very large population of Italian-Americans. Italian-American culture pervades many facets of Staten Island life and culture, even among non-Italians — so much so that many residents (and former residents like me) sometimes jokingly refer to it as Staten Italy.
I recently stumbled across a French/English comedy special which has a bit specifically about this, and how much French people judge other French people's French.
I have absolutely zero experience with French and I still found most of the clips entertaining
I had a girlfriend who did exactly the same as his wife.
It's not surprising that people initially took my version of French as an effort to learn a language properly, and hers as a sign of cognitive issues or trouble with language. Even once someone's aware of it, it won't necessary change the fundamental reaction (kind of what taller children go through - even when people learn they're much younger, they still apparently have trouble applying the standards they normally would for younger children).
Not sure what else to say about this, other than that I've seen it exactly was you describe (though not quite with the "heavy" accent, more of a moderate but immediately noticeable one).
Damn, now I wonder if that's how I come off when speaking English.
I'm from South America and have been living in the US for the last 8 years. But even before that, I always really liked English and as a kid worked really hard to emulate the way I heard it spoken in American TV shows.
The way I speak has been described as, "pretty much no accent, but you don't sound like you're from anywhere in particular." Other immigrants sometimes think I'm American, but most people say I sound like someone who speaks English as their first language, but they aren't be able to tell which country I could be from.
Maybe I should just have a bit more of a foreign accent, after all :D
Interesting. I'm gonna watch that movie when I get chance.
On one call I recall a team from Paris snickering as my Quebecois co-worker spoke who was confused and embarrassed.
Heureusement, mon professeur était parisien.
I'm not from the south so I'm not as sure what the stereotype is in the opposite direction -- about the "yankees". Probably that they are inept and arrogant? Any time I've heard American southerners talk about "yankees" that's pretty much the tone
Out on the west coast I never hear about these dynamics anymore. People don't care about north/south here. Though curiously to me, I have encountered many westerners who sound more southern than northern to my ear.
On the other hand French speaker can get confused by strange intonation or stresses. Also there are several sounds that do not exist in English (e.g. /eu/, /u/, and the nasals /an/, /on/, /in/, the /ill/ can be problematic as well). Approximations of these sounds are distracting and can be genuinely confusing. And contrary to some English accents you can’t count on properly stressed syllables to help carry the meaning.
During my time in New York I had the opposite problem. As a native French speaker with some English education (having lived in London), apparently people understood me without difficulty. On the other hand, it took me a while to get the meaning of what other people were saying without asking them to repeat. After months it was still difficult to understand announcements in the subway.
Don't worry, native English speakers also have difficulties with this
long, l/on/ng, l/an/ng?
The /on/ nasal vowel is also approximated in “don’t” in some English accent, but again often imperfectly. In French, you don’t hear the n at all, whereas it is most often noticeable in “long”. AFAICT, the closest is /ão/ in Portuguese.
It was a helluva realization about psychology.
Walter Lewin (as in e.g. https://youtu.be/sJG-rXBbmCc) is a quite extreme example, despite the fact that he has lived in the US since 1966. Carice van Houten (Melisandre in Game of Thrones) has it too but less pronounced.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Flemish people have a distinct English accent too, and that I simply don't notice it as much (being Flemish myself).
Germans speaking English are often recognizable as well.
Yes! One thing I sometimes notice is that, in Flemish we pronounce "wat is" as "wadis", and sometimes Flemish people in English will also say "Whad is". So Flemish people end up saying "Whad is dat?" instead of "What is that?". (Also lots of "eh?"s and the occasional "allez" pop up.)
It's more than that. There's a growing divergence between the spoken French and the written French.
Où irions-nous ? Nous hésitâmes... (written French)
On allait où ? On a hésité... (spoken French)
Writings from the XVIIth century bare little difference to most modern novels. Of course, some words have evolved (e.g. "caresser" was akin to "praise", now it's more like "pet" or "fondle") but the grammar and the vocabulary is mostly identical.
Centuries ago, the langage spoken was already different from what was written. I think the main difference was that there were many local variations, like shown in the Littré dictionary (1870s). The uniformization came with WWI, then the modern communication.
Don't be so harsh. I would not be surprised to hear a child (~6/8 years old) say that, assuming some kind of polite/policed family background.
> Yes, they don't teach you the "on a...", "faire le truc avec...", "ouais" and "ca marche"
Imagine us watching Stringer Bell from "The Wire" for the first time. Or listening to pop or rap. Or chatting with native speakers.
We just have more exposure.
I tried to watch "The Wire" without English subtitles 10 years ago. No chance. I could barely make out individual words. After a season with subtitles, it just clicked.
You've got the same thing going on with American accents, and some of them keeping older English features. Simon Roper made a nice video about that [1].
Some of the most interesting wines in the world IMO.
Thing is, it's very difficult for me to understand. But I realized that if I put on CC in French, I can understand it no problem, almost as well as if the CC was in English. But without the CC, I can't understand it well enough to enjoy the show.
This leads me to believe that my difficulty in understanding spoken vs written French might not be so much grammar and vocab of spoken French, but rather the difficulty of translating sounds to words in real time.
I really should leave the CC off entirely, but I want to enjoy the show, so for now, my compromise is to watch with CC in French. I am almost certainly compromising my language skills this way, though.
Both as meant for children (and adult who think like them) so you might feel condescended to — but both have a very simple, classic language, distinctly articulated that makes it easier to follow for foreigners.
The stories are wonderful too: about what makes a life worthwhile and conservation.
The other recommendation I’d make are:
* audio-books that might not have movie equivalent: the accent in _Regain_, by the same Giono as _L’homme qui plantait des arbres_ has me to tears;
* any version of Criminal (the UK one was popular but the French, German and Spanish one are great too); all have the same minimal set and nothing but dialogue (it feels like a hilarious and successful exercise in saving money on production);
* hopefully _Lupin_: it’s brand new, I haven’t watched it yet but friends say it’s great. It seems to have a wide variety of contemporary accents, fast paced dialogue so not for the early learner.
> hopefully _Lupin_: it’s brand new, I haven’t watched it yet but friends say it’s great. It seems to have a wide variety of contemporary accents, fast paced dialogue so not for the early learner.
Yes, Lupin is great for that. The accents are not too heavy and the text, though not high literature, is not too dumb (often a problem with series, to be honest). The language is contemporary with a bit of slang but nothing outlandish that I recall. Also, the American accents of the dubbed version are completely out of character so the French audio is the way to go anyway.
My all time favourite French show, Kaamelott, would be utterly inpenetrable for non-native French speakers because it relies heavily on verbal comedy and speech registers.
I'm an English-only speaker and watch English with subtitles and it definitely increases my understanding too. I think I definitely have a problem mapping sounds to meaning, names especially can take me 3 or 4 times to hear properly when introduced if it's a little noisy. It gets embarrassing to ask them to repeat themselves.
Spoken conversations also don't stick as well in my memory - if I read something once there's a good chance I remember it adequately, not so much for listening.
Virtually everyone who learns a language in school as you described will feel this way when they encounter native speakers in the target language's country(s) of origin.
The reality of school teaching is that it enforces prescriptive snapshots of the language. It teaches the grammatical "rules" of a language at a moment in time, but these rules are always changing. Common English has changed a lot since 1800; consider how different an English class in 1800s might be from one now, though they are both valid in being called English classes. The classes continue exist, but they are often lingering behind the real deal.
Language is developed naturally by our minds, and its inner workings are still largely unknown to us. The best way to learn it is by actual exposure to it, as it is meant to be used. You are always going to be removed from this reality if you are sitting in a classroom with minimal direct exposure.
Now I have PTSD everytime I see or eat pizza, the song plays in my head, like some sick Pavlov experiment.
“Bonjour“ and “croissant” are classic examples too: the opening 'b' is muted, 'j' only exist in some arabic dialect, etc.
I used to live near the Louvre and the hundreds of tourist ordering at the local bakery were offended that, pointing at the pastries and articulating as much as they could, the baker would claim to have no idea what they wanted. I had to explain that she genuinely couldn’t understand and she was sincerely confused at them pointing at a croissant and asking for a “Keurrawssanteu”. Those two things could not be the same — it’s not an accent: someone from Switwzerland or Quebec would have no problem even though they sound completely different. I could make sense because I spoke English. “But I’m speaking in French…” Well… almost.
French beginner, holy shit I'm just gonna use that if I ever speak with native speakers. I'll tell 'em I learned in Switzerland. soixante-dix and quatre-vingt-dix is bonkers!
It must have been an odd feeling - like looking at your reflection for the first time!
It was not only the accent (now weaker with time), but also mumbling plus talking too fast. It was a good experience. Definitely motivated me to pay more attention when I speak, slow down and articulate more (the accent part was not the main issue there ;).
- the language level, which is very much higher than what you would get recording anyone on the street today, with fairly rich grammatical forms, and few of the now common shortcuts or mistakes - in a way, a more beautiful and educated French than you can find in most of today's France, the kind you'd find only in older traditional upper class families
- the accent itself, which has kind of a lower-social-status conotation;
- the guy pronouncing everything, who is neither in the highs nor in the lows of society, but a middle class small busines owner who presumably did not receive higher (nor probably even high school) education
Were I not an optimist, I'd say this unfortunately is a sad illustration of what has become of education and language in our country, and more generally the acceptance by our society of everything and anything under the pretext that everyone deserves a chance even when they don't match the level previously judged as the acceptable minimum.
What I found interesting is that while he does pronounce more things than a typical Parisian would today, he does skip some e's, in a very typical Parisian manner.
[1] https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/la-methode-scientifiq...
Then you come back and suddenly most people have an accent! It's funny.
Now I wonder if the same could be true of Paris and I'm just blind to it because it's my native language.
Northside drops trailing Ts, replacing them with a gentle glottal stop ("give me my coat" -> "gimme me coa'"), "book" may be pronounced "buke", etc.
Southside, at the sterotypical maximum, pushes trailing Ts towards SH and broadens vowels ("are you all right" -> "ore you awl roish" - it's not quite sh, but in that direction).
(I was born in Dublin, my father and his siblings grew up in North Strand in the shade of Croke Park, but I grew up in Galway, so I observed the accent as an outsider when staying in Dublin.)
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6089621A87373FBE
The oddest is Tangier Island, VA:
Relevant to this submission, a Cajun accent:
Relevant to HN, tech talk circa 1985:
> https://youtu.be/C4ctm0tElsU
Since this thread is about accents, I start watching that and immediately hearing the guy say "hard drive" and "automatic" I think: he's from New York.
(For context: I did not grow up in NYC, but my family was from there, and I lived there for quite awhile myself as well. It's entirely possible someone who did grow up in NYC can do better than I can, but, at least to my ear, it gets very close to just standard American broadcast English the younger you go, so I doubt it.)
A closer analogue to being able to distinguish accents from Montparnasse, Montmartre and La Villette would be to able to distinguish accents from different places in Manhattan.
I think even today there are substantial accent differences within the Paris metropolitan area (think Versailles vs le Marais vs Aulnay), but within Paris proper not so much.
The world wasn't bigger back then (or even today). People were less connected and their speech patterns were not influenced by audio-visual media.
The 8th arrondissement at lunch time has a uniform, distinct from La Défense's. The 16th's rue de Passy and the 7th's rue Cler have clear differences in clothing and speech style on a Saturday morning. Le Marais and the 11th have different stereotypical accessories.
We'll see what'll be the public opinion about us in 108 years!
I don't think I can spot accents from different parts of Paris, but I can definitely spot accents from different parts of London.
I think there's something else at play, I'm not sure what. Maybe how much people have moved in last few decades? Maybe how much of a hyper-local life there is in each area?
However, what killed my suspension of disbelief (as a native French speaker) was the fact that the French actress spoke with an unmistakable early 21st century accent, definitely out of place in a second world war movie.
This was a big letdown, considering how much attention had been given to accents in the rest of the movie.
Both the English and German were much closer to a 21st century accent than a 1940s one, and so was the French one as you mentioned.
Over the last decades living in France, I've heard several friends that lost their accent, notably from Loire and Jura. Of course some new French accents may emerge locally or in some communities, but the geography plays a lesser role.
My grand-parents still today have a similar way of speaking as well. It is not only the accent, but also the pace and vocabulary.
Also, nowadays everybody is speaking casual French, but formal French was actually a thing in the past ;)
There are even recordings of people speaking latin and Esperanto in 1912. Fascinating stuff!
The question is - is it happening more quickly than before. Almost certainly, I'd say, if you listen to examples of London accents across the centuries like these:
MAJOR caveat there; to a large extent that's presumably based on people _guessing_ what a London accent was like 600 years ago. There's some evidence, but there certainly aren't recordings, and there'd be ~no information on the small details.
* https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
A couple of years later I ended up with a beautiful Polish girlfriend and she spoke no English. In six weeks with the help of a pocket phrase book and Polish/English dictionary constantly by my side I could hold a conversation in Polish perfectly well. The things that motivate us…
So, while what you said may be true for radio broadcasts, I am not sure it is at play here even if the interviewee knows he is being recorded.
Although it might sound clearer to English speakers because it features more word-level stress while standard French doesn't really have it (but this has not been lost recently).
Similarly I've been learning Spanish the past few years, and the most comprehensible accents are those from Guatemala, Nicaragua, and Honduras--some of the poorest Spanish-speaking countries. I cannot for the life of me understand a heavy Mexican or Chilean accent, but I can easily follow Guatemalan. It's interesting from a socio-linguistic perspective if nothing else.
Someone from 1910 would have a hard time understanding all the neologisms that were introduced after two world wars and decolonization until today.
For us from 2021, someone from 1912 uses words that are commonly found in written works from the same period (and after). This is why we feel it sounds like 'art'. Written words live way longer than spoken words.
Even today, common spoken French is very different from common written French.
I mean one of my favorite channels on youtube is a pair of disembodied Canadian hands and voice, he has a way with words: https://youtu.be/toewD0VInlc. Here's a dictionary (do set it to show more than 10 at a time): https://codepen.io/LegoLife/full/YVXbMR
Also back then people traveled less (especially in the lower classes) which probably made accents stronger and more easily identifiable. Now it's routine for people of all classes to move to a different part of the country for studies or work, and you have mass media spamming a somewhat "standard" Parisian French across the country.
And speech is still the main interface of communication. In general when people send casual texts they'll try to emulate the spoken language, including nonstandard inflections and spelling changes etc...
If anything on average we probably pay a lot less attention to the written word than we used to because we use it so much more and for much more casual conversation. Few people used to write "wanna grab sumthin 2 eat?" a few decades ago.
This is still the case today but was even more so and educated upper classes people were taught to speak 'properly'. That very posh accent you hear in old British films and old BBC footage is called "traditional received pronunciation(RP)" [1].
That being said, accent is a social marker almost everywhere. It certainly is one in France, including because the country is very centralised on Paris and regional accents are usually deemed 'inferior' (it's similar to England, tbh). These days in France the accent and way of speaking you want to avoid at all cost is "l'accent des cités", i.e. the accent of people, often of foreign descent, from the bad suburban areas.
Is everyone commenting so far French?
You don't have to be French to understand French. There are other countries where French is the main language, and you can speak French as your second (or third, ..) language.
You can use DeepL or Google Translate to translate to a language you understand.
Obviously. I still don't understand why this is on frontpage.
It's an interesting turning point in the history of modern technology, a bit like the first time someone saw himself in a picture or in a movie.
For me, personally (YMMV), I am going to link it to my mother (born 1951, my father passed away) who has been to Paris in the 70s with my father, as well as with me about 10 years ago. She's also far better in French than I am. I'm curious on her take. Same with my mother-in-law; she loves the French language.
Here's another example which shows how society changes. A Trip Down Market Street [1], San Francisco a couple of days or weeks before the 1906 earthquake. You can take from it what you want, what I found interesting I commented on in that item [2].
If people upvoted, it was deemed interesting. Regardless, you don't have to enjoy it. I know this is primarily a native English speaking website, but does that mean interesting history from outside of native English speaking regions is forbidden?
“Trust me, I’m European”.
Beside it, there are 300 million French speakers worldwide today, up almost 10% since 2014, and a recent survey showed that 44% of them live in sub-Saharan Africa.
By 2050, a full 85% of French speakers could live on the continent, according to an estimate by an organisation that monitors statistics on who speaks the language.