Hacker News Reader

Comment by cameldrv | Hacker News Reader

Interesting article, but the extreme lack of electricity seems unnecessary, at least today. Solar panels have gotten much cheaper, enough so that generating adequate power to run a couple of laptops even on cloudy days is fairly affordable. Batteries to keep it going at night have also come down in price.

Maybe the extreme power savings are more of an aesthetic thing for them.

View on HN

On a medium sized sailboat the limiting factor for how much PV capacity you can have is the physical mounting space. Google "bimini top solar panel":

https://www.google.com/search?q=bimini+top+solar+panel&clien...

What could be trivially easy to mount on a small off grid cabin in the woods somewhere, like two of these:

https://www.altestore.com/store/solar-panels/panasonic-hit-h...

could be very difficult and too much surface area and wind loading on a sailboat that people can realistically afford to buy. If you have the space and can fit one, something like the Sunpower 400W rated panels which are composed of expensive, ultra high efficiency monocrystalline Si cells would be ideal. You're looking for the greatest ratio of watts per square meter in STC test conditions.

What I would recommend is first calculating the watt-hours per day consumed by your projected load, versus what the PV system could be expected to produce.

Another factor in sail boats is the shading caused by masts, stowed sails, hand rails and lines. It's one of the few places where micro-scale wind turbines almost work.

Sort of... but the wind turbines often don't point well when you're at sea, and you intentionally anchor in calm places to avoid the swell. Sailing specific PV would often have 40 silicon cells rather than 36 in series, to provide some headroom for partial shading. Watt & sea hydro-generators have become quite ubiquitous recently, as if you're making passage your entire vessel is a machine for concentrating wind energy: https://www.wattandsea.com/index.php/en/products/cruising-hy...

Also you may be more likely to stay put on a calm day, increasing demand for power.

I'm clueless in this area. Would a raft be viable? Presumably it would add some drag if you're underway but a small inflatable pontoon raft seems like it could run 4-6 panels and be reasonably portable when not in use.

I do off grid PV professionally but don't know a lot about boats. But having been on a few 42-48 ft size cruiser type sailboats, I can't think of a place you could easily pack away six 1.65x1.0 meter size (typical 60-cell) rigid, aluminum framed high efficiency PV panels, unless you basically dedicated the smaller guest bunk to storage space.

Hey. You said you do off grid. I have a question. I own a 5 kW on grid setup for net metering. Works fine but now I want to use backups. I have two options, either lithium 100ah 48v which is expensive or 12v 200ah x 4 to make 48v. Cheaper but limited life because the home load would be on it entirely.

I dont know. The calculation of kWh checks out to be 100ah x 48v = 4800wh. And for lead acid 200ah x 12v x 2= 4800wh.

What do you suggest or is there something I am thinking incorrectly... space is not an issue BTW.

google "DIY powerwall" if you're up for a bit of a technical challenge.

4 x 12V 200Ah isn't big enough for most houses, unless it's like a cabin in the woods somewhere. and you're right that the cycle life of those and cost is high.

but commercial li-ion based solutions are also expensive. However, if you can keep them at 80-85% state of charge, and rarely if ever discharge them below 30%, they should have lifespans 5-6x longer than the lead acid solution.

in either solution you can't really consider the full volts * Ah capacity of the battery to be usable. If you were to ever use all of the watt-hours in a 12V 200Ah battery you'd kill it, you never want to go below 20% state of charge... so to be conservative the actual capacity of a single battery is something like:

12 * 200 = 2400 Wh, then (2400 * 0.70) = 1680Wh.

Current LFP battery prices are around $120 per kWh delivered: I just ordered 14 kWh (48V 16S) for 1700 USD delivered.

This is cheaper than an Apple laptop.

A quarter of the price paid is shipping since it comes directly from China so source price is already under $100/kWh.

A recent test by Will Prowse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U4ZfQ_IToI

$433 280Ah LiFePO4 Cells Tested: Cheaper than lead acid!

Many people have the same good experience with these kind of cells:

https://diysolarforum.com/

Added: 14 kWh will run a 20 Watt laptop for a month.

Where are you getting new LFP batteries for that price?

There is a fellow down in Port St. Lucie Florida that has launched a 100ah LiFePO4 with a 10-year warranty for ~ $550usd each. I saw his shop in person when I purchased some solar from him and was quite impressed with the work they've done and the research and testing that has gone into their products. I had already purchased my batteries by the time I discovered his product or I would have purchased from him: https://outlandsolar.com/

My partner and I live aboard a 41ft sailboat and both work remotely as programmers. I installed 1920w of solar on the boat and get approximately 3.5-4.5kwh per day in output, depending on which way we are oriented while at anchor. I installed 600ah of LiFePO4 batteries @ 12v and when combined with that amount of solar, we have pretty much all the power we need. We frequently cook with an air fryer and have a dishwasher on the boat that we run daily-- all off solar.

That price is really good. I'm curious what cells they used.

I'm pretty sure they're Sinopoly cells, but I'm no expert. The BMS they use is quite impressive too, from what I could tell. While I was there in the shop they had a battery cut open and I was able to see inside.

Where/how do you fit ~2000W of solar on your boat? That’s impressive.

I ended up mounting two ~39x70in panels on top of the davits and one on each side of the stern, mounted to the stanchions like 'wings' that can be propped up while at anchor. Strangely enough, I found I was getting so much power from the panels that I don't bother propping them up. Because of the way the panels are mounted (basically at least 1 panel facing the sun at all times), I'm able to get roughly 500w from 8:30am until just after 5pm. I was pleasantly surprised.

SOK Battery also has an 100ah battery for $570. They look a little more reputable then a DIY'er, but kudos to him for selling. a product.

Will prowse has a link to the vendor he chose in the youtube video description, if you search for "supplier" in the forum you'll get plenty of feedback on various known vendors.

I chose one (after sending a few private message to forum members) but I'm not recommanding it until I get and test my batteries.

My dad gave me Will Prowse's book as a resource when I was rigging my van with solar - it was a great read but not a necessary buy because all the info you need is on his website.[0] His YouTube channel is a great resource that I'd definitely recommend! Interested to hear what the brand is if your tests turn out satisfactory.

[0] https://www.mobile-solarpower.com/

Beware of suspiciously cheap lifepo4 batteries from China, they are by no means all the same.

If you look for known good chinese LFP vendors on forums it minimize the risk, lots of people are reporting to spec or very close to spec batteries. And when they are issues looks like most chinese vendors will just send a replacement if you document your problem well (compare this to local store return processes ...).

But LFP batteries have gotten really cheap, so the price for a mistake is no longer prohibitive.

The part in that youtube video where he's using uninsulated steel wrenches across the top bus bars to tighten down the terminals is extremely scary.

I don't think there is a huge risk when you're dealing with 12V batteries.

The high efficiency panels are typically semi-flexible without the frame, are they not? Do you think it would be possible to obtain and mount them without a rigid frame? Or even to remove them from the frame? I'm asking partly because I had considered making some sort of basic, folding, portable solar panel structure- imagine a few semi-flexible panels duct-taped together. (I'd likely not _actually_ use duct tape).

That's backwards. Flexible panels are less efficient than rigid ones.

Correct, flexible cells are 10-14% efficient, the best rigid monocrystalline single junction Si cells are 23% plus.

I think that's correct for thin film panels. But it appears that monocrystalline panels can be manufactured with some flexibility. Hence my usage of the term "semi-flexible". Sunpower, for example, claims to produce high efficiency semi-flexible monocrystalline panels that would flex sufficiently for use on a bimini top, for example.

It further appears that my statement "high efficiency panels are typically semi-flexible without the frame" is inaccurate- they are typically not reasonably described as semi-flexible, even without the frame and coating.

Real high efficiency monocrystalline si cells are not flexible in any way, for example the typical 156mm cell that makes up a 315-400W rated 60 or 72 cell panel. In fact they're quite brittle and fragile when not encapsulated on a backing sheet and under protective glass.

Monocrystalline by definition is not flexible, you're referring to thin films (cadmium telluride or amorphous silicon or other)

Thanks for the reply.

Is there any middle ground?

Is Sunpower's claim of 22-25% efficient monocrystalline semi-flexible panels not to be believed? Have I been fooled by the marketing? Are these thin film panels? Nothing I can find online suggests this is a dubious claim, but it's possible I'm simply failing to find correct information.

Why not floating solar panels attached to the boat?

(Just a random idea, I know absolutely nothing about boats :)

When you're docked in a marina or similar its unlikely there would be space. When you're sailing or motoring somewhere you want the minimum drag\resistance through the water, and more importantly, the waves would smash them to pieces in no time. To make them weatherproof would mean making them less like a floating solar panel and more like a small boat.

One of my favorite science-fictions was imagining the Sea Slice, repurposed as a deployable floating mini-solar power plant. To actually be able to get anywhere, you'd need a gobsmackingly large amount of power storage, or you just take it day by day, charge for a couple hours, go, charge for a couple hours, go.

Sure wish I had a million dollars sitting around when the ship went on sale for $280k. And a couple more friends with free time & well-equipped workshops.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29428/the-experimental...

> Solar panels have gotten much cheaper, enough so that generating adequate power to run a couple of laptops even on cloudy days is fairly affordable. Batteries to keep it going at night have also come down in price.

From the article:

> Our work schedule is tied to the weather, as we depend on solar energy to power our computers.

So, what's the problem then? Well, they've written in-depth about the challenges and constraints of solar elsewhere on the site. [1]

Their vessel is on the smaller side of the spectrum. There's only so much usable space to place a solar array. [2] They do use batteries and they have a small gas generator, but those are also limited and only used as a backup.

[1] https://100r.co/site/off_the_grid.html#power [2] https://100r.co/site/pino.html

I'm trying to run a company in a hostile regulatory environment. I've been without power since April 2020.

This is in the middle of a city in the United States.

I've tried generators and have gone through 3 so far. Fuel was very expensive, and the time and effort to keep them running 24/7 was miserable. I have now tried going solar but have had all sorts of problems with battery life and cloudy weather. It's not as easy as I thought it would be.

> I'm trying to run a company in a hostile regulatory environment. I've been without power since April 2020. This is in the middle of a city in the United States.

.. how? Which city?

Pine Bluff, Arkansas.

There might be a relevant distinction between "without power" and "power is not available to me".

The city won't approve the electrical hookup to the building I purchased. I've had 2 different commercial contractors try to pull permits and both of them were denied. Not denied in writing, but convinced not to file the required application. I was actually assaulted by a zoning officer while sitting in their office trying to fill out an application they didn't want me to submit.

That sounds miserable. Fighting (an office of) City Hall is a painful experience.

You must have some idea of why they are obstructing though, right? An electrical permit is an indirect block, so I'm guessing you've fought other battles with the office in the past?

In any case, you have a right to file the permit. The office might make your life hell through documented denials or overzealous inspections, but getting the permit filed should be non-controversial. Once filed, they must approve or deny. If denied, there is a formal appeals process which can run through different people/departments. If you have the time and energy for it, of course.

Anyway, I know you are not here soliciting advice, but my next step would be to bring a lawyer to the filing office to ensure that the application is filed, and that no further assault occurs. Good luck.

I called a lawyer when the incident happened where I couldn't file the application.

I do feel like part of the problem is they don't actually want to give me anything in writing.

I've got a scheduled meeting with the mayor, my lawyer, the fire marshal, and the main zoning officer on the 21st of this month.

> I do feel like part of the problem is they don't actually want to give me anything in writing.

That sounds like a reasonable guess to me.

If there is some personal animosity, or they have a friend who runs a potential competitor/lost on the purchase bid/etc, or somesuch other corrupt motivations ... then their only real power is to exhaust you.

Once you have a live permit application, you're in the system and the legal process takes over. They can still hit you hard on process and code conformity, but it takes greater coordination to do so.

Again, good luck. Petty corruption is sometimes the worst kind.

I found out that they started a tax and allocated about $10M to doing the same things I'm trying to do. They've already put $400k into their business incubator, but it hasn't opened yet.

Their science museum kinda sucks, and their "maker space" is a laser cutter tacked onto the incubator as an afterthought.

The building I bought is 220,000 sqft and I'm passionate about doing all the things that tax is supposed to pay for, but I didn't know this at the time.

If I fail and nobody notices then everything is fine for them. But if I succeed, people might wonder what the tax went to if I don't get some of it, and I'm sure it's all already spoken for.

The thing is, I don't even care about that money. I just want to do my own thing without interference.

I'm sorry I misjudged you, that sounds miserable.

This almost sounds like someone whose nightclub has had to go DL to ignore covid restrictions.

More than that, they're on a sailboat! Electric motors offer regen when under sailpower, which is absolutely huge, or you can get a towable torpedo generator. Otherwise, get a small wind turbine.

You can subsist on PV alone but there are far better options, especially when available PV area is so limited.

Congrats on reading the article and not getting the context.

They live on a boat, by the sea, often in the middle of the ocean.

Even with solar panel, extreme power saving is a necessity.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com