Decoding the Peloton
ihaque.org
ihaque.org
Certainly SOME of my riding pals do spin during the week, but most of them are doing structured workouts using TrainerRoad or TrainingPeaks or Zwift and a smart trainer attached to a real bike. (Mostly, it's their old bike, because cyclists nearly always have more than one bike.)
Indoor training for cyclists has, for the last 15 or so years, generally been focused on power targets. You do some fitness tests to determine your maximum hourly wattage, and then your workouts are expressed as a series of X minutes at Y% of your max power, etc.
This is tedious if you're using an old-style, fixed-resistance trainer, because you're watching the clock during the intervals and then shifting on the bike to achieve higher or lower levels of resistance in order to hit the right power target at a reasonable cadence. Honestly, this SUCKS.
Smart trainers take that out of it by dynamically adjusting the resistance for each segment during the workout, so all you really have to do is keep pedaling at the desired cadence (typically 90-95 rpm); sometimes it's harder, and sometimes it's easier. You don't have to manage anything. It's awesome. (I watch bad movies on the trainer now.)
The Peloton, as I understand, doesn't dynamically adjust its resistance. I'm baffled by this, given how home training is for go-fast cyclists, but maybe that's just not a thing spin people want.
The Peloton also has power zone training similar to what you mentioned. With the instructors nattering on in the background, occasionally rotating the dial isn't so bad.
I believe the newer version of the bike does have automatic resistance control, though.
There's no built-in mode for constant power. (Nor could there be, on the original Bike that I have, as the resistance control is manual.)
The new one might have it.
At a hardware level I'm not sure how well it would work. Out of the box, the tablet only queries the bike for cadence/power/resistance every 100ms, one query at a time in round robin, so your power reading is only coming every 300ms. However, the bike responds to queries much faster - on the order of 200-300us (https://ihaque.org/posts/2020/12/26/pelomon-part-ii-emulatin...), so an external device could certainly ask for updates faster. I'm not sure how rapidly the micro on the bike itself actually updates its own measurements and what ultimate time resolution is possible.
This can end up chasing you up the cassette if you don't get back on top of it, or you don't adjust the workout bias (ie, reduce the overall power targets to something you can hit).
but you really want this, at least for structured training. It may NOT be important if your goal is "spin at home."
(Someone downtopic seems to think drawing a distinction between "people who mostly ride outside fast in pacelines" and "people who mostly just like spin classes" is somehow snobbery, but I don't see it that way at all.)
On a $4K machine? The $800 NordicTrack rower we bought automatically adjusts resistance with their iFit programs. So people were just paying for an exercise bike with a big LCD screen? I'm astounded that they stayed in business long enough to release a second version that fixes this. VC money can fix that problem, but I'm also astounded that anyone actually bought one.
Hell, the pricey-but-not-as-pricey-as-Peleton computerized trainer I had almost 15 years ago could adjust the resistance on the fly. I just figured that was table stakes these days.
I came in skeptical but it's been working well for me.
Granted, the direct drive trainers and related software have functionality the Peloton does not have, particularly the pre-Bike+ peloton.
In particular, I hear a lot of complaints about Zwift getting really boring. I'm not a gamer, but as a Peloton rider, I find the gamification aspect kind of appealing. I like the idea of visually racing someone on the screen, I'm competitive. It's the most appealing part of the platform. Changing gears and attaching my bike to the thing and finding room for it, and getting all teh sensors sorted is definitely NOT the appealing part.
I find that I'm mostly using it to drive the trainer, since I mostly watch a movie or something on the second tablet.
I agree that "serious outdoor riders are not really Peloton's market", and it comes across in literally every piece of snobbery about how a spin bike can't simulate real road feel and you'll never get your proper position and couldn't possibly train the same muscles and so on. I just smile and nod. The bike world is full of snobbery.
The older Pelotons do NOT adjust their resistance dynamically, you're right. I wouldn't call it baffling. I only change my resistance a handful of times (okay maybe 10, including little tweaks) during a class. Honestly it's kind of nice having those micro-steps. What else are you doing? It's sort of like people who can't be bothered to use their turn signal. I'm just sitting there pedaling away. I might as well turn a knob from time to time.
None of that is actually WRONG, though. A spin bike is its own thing, with its own set of desired features and aesthetics and behaviors. It's not snobbery to say it's different from training done with cycling trainers and "real" bikes.
Your final paragraph is kind of odd, since the questions you asked were already answered. Power interval training for competitive cyclists involves longish (45-120 minute) workouts with many intervals set at different percentages of your functional threshold power.
Manually adjusting for each one is a tremendous pain in the ass. For example, on my workout last night, I would've had to manually adjust it 16 times in 55 minutes.
Smart trainers have more or less taken over for serious riders precisely because they remove this problem.
If this isn't a problem for YOU because you prefer the way spin-type workouts go, that's awesome for you, but it really just points out that serious outdoor riders are mostly looking for a different experience than Peloton sells. Again: not snobbery. Just an acknowledgment that spin <> outdoor cycling.
Its a device that you set on the Peloton that does the automatic resistance changes to match the hills in Zwift by using a motor to turn the big red knob. Basically it converts your Peloton into a smart trainer that you can use with Zwift without having to mod your Peloton at all.
Note: I am not affiliated with the project but I have backed it.
I'd ask "what were they thinking?" but it apparently sells like hotcakes, so it's me who's out of touch.
I dumped it on craigslist and replaced it with a $250 "dumb" spin bike, a $10 tablet mount, and an Apple watch I already had. I don't get cadence data, but I could with a pedal magnet thing if I actually cared.
Their reddit is also heavily astroturfed, which makes me never want to do business with them again.
Kudos to them for figuring out how to make 100%+ margins, I guess. It's just very much not for me.
For example, if they opened up their platform, then people could just choose other content sources that are free or pay money into someone else's pocket, like other group classes.
Otherwise Peloton could try the eShop approach where their group classes compete on an eShop where they take 30% of the cut, but that market is tiny and still has to compete with just using your iPad while you pedal.
On the other hand, I'd consider buying one if there was more to do than group classes and maybe I'm not alone. I'm not cocky enough to think I know what the masses want, but it does seem like their lack of ambition about what can be done with the bike could be leaving a lot of money on the table.
Someone has also now made a physical device to adjust the resistance, so it can be used with other software [0]. I think Peloton really should use ANT+ and open up, would make the bikes usable for many more people. Of course, maybe it's the subscription Peloton wants to make money on, not the bikes?
[0]: https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2020/12/shift-smart-trainer-firs...
I tend to look down on the classist assignment of folks' motivations for buying things. It's almost always projection. How many years did we have to hear about the "status symbol" of a starbucks cup? If only $2 for a cup of black coffee could buy you status, right?
One good example is in-line skating/rollerblading. It was a very popular activity--at least in urban areas--a number of years back and it just sort of petered out. You rarely see someone skating these days.
Why's that unreasonable? When I was trying to get back into shape and add some strength training, I started seeing a personal trainer, which I honestly, probably stuck with for too long. Given per-session costs, it was costing me upwards of $500/mo. Of course that includes use of gym facilities and 1:1 training and advice. Probably one of the best things I ever did.
Basic gym memberships have gotta be at least $100/mo. I'm sure there are countless people paying $200/mo and up. Obviously you get access to a lot more equipment, but you have to go there, too.
I just don't see $40/month as a lot. Maybe I'm strange.
Since then, my wife also added a Peloton treadmill to the mix, which is over 4k. It uses the same subscription. As do the Yoga and stretching and bodyweight strength classes.. and meditation if you're into that. Both of us, 2 pieces of equipment, unlimited classes, on your phone, appletv, whatever. $40/mo.
On the average evening we've got the treadmill and bike going at the same time and when she finishes with her run she's doing stretching and core stuff in the living room while I do more on the bike. The subscription starts to sound like a pretty good deal. But don't tell them that, because we're locked in thanks to the hardware :)
I don't think you can pass this off as a fad- Soul Cycle first hit the scene around 2009, its still around- and they have just released a bike and service as well. Other look alikes have come on the market as well- Tonal and Mirror being the biggest. This is looking less like a fad and more like they were the leading edge of a smart exercise equipment industry.
Sure the specific piece of equipment that is in vogue might come and go, but I think Peloton is here to stay. This doesn't mean that gyms are going to close in the long run, but workout equipment as a service is a class of product that I feel is with us for the long haul.
Its success was mostly due to its novelty and exclusivity. After a while, copycats and their push for growth did them in.
Peloton is the same. They are first to market and have cultivated a level of exclusivity, but there is nothing unique about them that other businesses can’t copy over time (it’s already happening — most exercise companies now have their own Peloclones).
She used to spend a jaw dropping amount on Soul- it was her favorite activity to take her clients to. Around the time they IPO'ed, she felt a change- the expansion took her favorite instructors out of her favorite studios, and often even out of the area as they helped open up locations in LA, Miami, etc. The new ones never had quite the same magnetism- which is of course subjective- most people have their personal favorites, and while there was some overlap, this could differ substantially from person to person. They used to give gifts to their top riders at the end of the year in the form of free classes, that went away, replaced with "charitable donations" and eventually just dropped altogether. Top instructors tried to branch out on their own, some successful, some not, but the point being is that really it was over expansion and IMHO brand dilution, which I guess you could call exclusivity (though I personally feel its a bit different than just exclusivity) that really sent them into a downward trajectory. She went from taking 4-5 classes a week, to mixing in Cycle Bar and other studios, to finally in October 2019 just deciding to get a Peloton.
All that said, they still had 1.62 million rides in 2019... which while down from ~1.8, that's not exactly a fad or a dead business- I actually thought their drop would be far bigger to be honest. Personally though I feel this was less of an effect of a fad, than the more typical story of the bean counters moving in and pursuing growth and next quarter's numbers at the cost of the quality of the brand.
To be honest that article was quite eye opening- I guess what I thought was a unique experience and fandom by my wife was something that the culture carefully cultivated.
It's probably not surprising that a group of tech people tends more towards introversion and exercising alone, whereas the general population likes the group aspect for motivation.
Hydrow goes for the more immersive experience--haven't used one; don't know if it has any third-party support or not.
Most stuff I use for cycling speak ANT+, so it can be combined as one wants. My indoor trainer, my cadance sensor, power meter, speed sensor, HR monitor, watch, head unit, phone, computer all can send or receive through ANT+. That's why you will find most cyclists oppose the Peloton bikes, they are impossible to combine with existing gear.
And that's why this exists! (Though it's BLE, not ANT+.)
I, and most consumers that've been repeatedly burned, go out of our way to avoid products that lock us to them. I'm in the market for an exercise bike, but a lifetime of $35+/mo for classes, in addition to a $2k+ bike with questionable repairability in 1,2,5,10 years, is not something I'll ever want.
Yes, pre-pandemic, there were other people in the room where they recorded the classes. And likely there are other people taking the same class as you, right now. You can see where they're at on the leaderboard. But they're also irrelevant to you. You can just ignore it. You take the class any time you want, and there's one instructor, and the fact that someone in south america happens to be watching the same stream as you isn't really relevant to your experience.
I'd say in the Zwift world, where you race other people on-screen is more of a "group" experience, but again, both of these workouts are highly individual.
I don't understand what you thought the product was? It's an exercise bike. You do exercise classes on it. It's not a games machine. What were they thinking? They were thinking it's an exercise bike.
> And gamification through badges is pretty standard exercise fair. My parent’s senior community even has gamification via small prizes for how many days you go to the gym.
I was just pointing out that Peloton does gamification through badges and that it includes an equivalent of days going to the gym.
You can imagine "games" in this sense being competitions played out via the bike, so time trials, race tournaments, etc. Compete with your friends (or others) to get through a race comparable to Tour de France stages -- something like that. Aside from survival, there is no greater motivator for pushing oneself physically than competition. Games facilitate that.
If you're a competitive person. Not everybody derives motivation from competition.
That depends.
If you're trying to develop a habit of regular exercise for your health (intrinsic motivation), competition (extrinsic motivation) is just as likely to be harmful to your goal.
In my personal case, removing the competitive element was extremely helpful for me to start doing regular exercise for its own sake.
Peloton isn't a hardware company, it's a company that sells streamed sessions with hot spin instructors. The hardware is merely tool for them and creating an ecosystem of competitors on top of the hardware is a definitive non-goal for them. But hardware companies do exist.
This is a pretty classic problem in product management - you have to avoid adding features what could drive your largest market away from the product.
I don't think that's Peloton's moat at all. For that there are much better alternatives. This is for casual gym goers.
I'm guessing Peleton is winning at the minute because of it being an integrated unit and having the marketing.
Being able to put hardware together that "does the same thing" is only a fraction of a competitor.
What you describe might work well for a different market.
[1] https://www.vox.com/the-goods/22195549/soulcycle-decline-reo...
You can just swipe a credit card (or, probably, ApplePay 1 button purchase) and have it show up at your house and work.
So they are mostly emulating that experience.
e.g. https://medium.com/@cezarbabin/hacking-the-peloton-bike-to-p...
or even running Stadia on the peloton
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stadia/comments/gj4aut/wireless_sup...
If anyone is interested in building their own PeloMon, a full BOM is present at the bottom of the third post in the series (https://ihaque.org/posts/2020/12/28/pelomon-part-iii-hardwar...), and the GitHub repo (https://github.com/ihaque/pelomon) has both Fritzing board layout files and the source code for the device.
After some digging around, and figuring out how they encoded the data it was trivial to implement this in a project that was used to keep Flywheel Bikes working.
https://github.com/ptx2/gymnasticon
The changes I introduced which now include support for the Peloton can be found here: https://github.com/ptx2/gymnasticon/pull/12
(No thanks for writing your code in Node ;) https://ihaque.org/posts/2020/12/28/pelomon-part-iii-hardwar.... The gymnasticon code was helpful to see before I tracked down the XML specs for the BLE characteristics, though!)
Mountain bikes generally don't work too well with trainers so I started looking at spin bikes. I researched the Peloton and honestly, it's kind of a rip off. Huge upfront cost, limited classes for West Coasters (when I looked, anyway), and that pesky monthly fee. You are paying for brand exclusivity, IMO.
I ended up getting a Schwinn IC4 for < $1,000 and no monthly fee. I hook it up to Zwift and an iPad or my TV for structured riding. Overall, I'm very happy with my decision. I would still have preferred the Peloton's integrated screen but at literally twice the price of the IC4 (plus ongoing fees for classes if you choose to utilize them), I just couldn't justify it.
It looks like the IC4 supports power, so I highly recommend doing power training on Zwift, particularly for mountain biking. (I'm an ex-PNWer :) )
We even had the Peloton subscription for a little while but opted for other classes in the end.
Does anyone know any apps which are able to communicate with iFit compatible equipment without needing to use the iFit app? I've got a 1 year free account with them but after that it doesn't really feel like their all offers enough for the monthly cost. Really just looking to log my workouts automatically to save needing to manually add them into something like Google Fit.
If the goal is to use to use the bike part with the other applications would not it be simpler for user to simply buy any pedal / crank based power-meter. Going this way one can also choose way less expensive spin bikes.
If the goal is to share Peloton Bike with the person who actually uses it as originally intended then power meter I think is still valid and less intrusive approach.
You can already use a rPI and a RS232 USB device to pull metrics off the bike and transmit those signals via BT.
Power meter pedals are significantly more expensive than the bits that went into this project. (There's a complete BOM in the follow-up post: https://ihaque.org/posts/2020/12/28/pelomon-part-iii-hardwar...).
Also, there's no fun in just buying it ;)
Sorry, this kind of turned into rant/preaching, I'm just biased against Peloton
Quick comparison: Peloton bike EUR 2145 + EUR 39/month - gets you courses and indoor riding
or: Canyon Endurace AL Disc 6.0 as an example of a very solid entry level road bike - EUR 1299
Kickr Core direct drive turbo trainer (good turbo trainer, there are cheaper ones if you go without direct drive) - EUR 799
Combined EUR 2098 + EUR 15/month for a Zwift membership or something comparable. Gets you excellent indoor training AND now you have a bike you can use when the weather gets better! Spend the rest of the up front money on a big fan for indoor training or clothing for outdoor riding.
Unbelievable that the peloton costs that much, what benefits do they actually offer over any alternative?
Above that price point, component quality goes up in terms of performance, weight, etc, below that price point it requires compromise you notice even when just riding for exercise (lower durability, bad shifts, sluggish ride feel and so on).
In the world of road bikes, I'd propose roughly these categories:
100-400: bad cheapo bikes. Will ride, but no fun and will break and give you headaches soon.
700-1000: Decent bikes, but you have to make some compromises. Fun can be had, will not randomly break because of bad quality components.
1000-1400: Good stuff, not extravagant. Won't have to compromise on much, you can be satisfied with this forever unless you want to be competitive, and even then it'll do fine.
1500-2500: "Premium", lighter weight, carbon stuff, really nice.
2500-4000: Same, but you can have cool carbon aero frames and stuff and lighter components.
5000+: Pro bike worthy.
I never used their classes. Nothing I used had a technical need for a subscription.
But they still want me to pay $40/month to show me a web app with stats my bike sends it to tell me which days I've used it and how I'm doing on my streaks and distance and duration. This information can all be stored locally (and is, presumably, both before and after you send it to them but only with a subscription).
I really hope that decoding the Peloton hardware leads to freeing my exercise bike from it's corporate overlords.
I've already done this.