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Comment by cbmuser | Hacker News Reader

Buying a car in Norway or even from abroad has always been very expensive because of the taxes Norway poses on regular cars:

> https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/person/duties/cars-and-other-...

Electric cars are exempt from these taxes which is why they are so attractive in Norway for customers. Electric cars are also exempt from road fees.

Overall, electric cars in Norway are still getting 2.4 billion USD subsidies per year:

> https://www.nettavisen.no/okonomi/norge-sponser-elbileiere-m...

I mean, of course people are buying electric cars under these circumstances.

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Are there any suggestions for how to replace lost revenue that would support infrastructure like roads?

In the US roads are mostly maintained by taxes on gas. I would think taxing tires might be a decent replacement, but I haven't seen much conversation on the issue.

>In the US roads are mostly maintained by taxes on gas. I would think taxing tires might be a decent replacement, but I haven't seen much conversation on the issue.

Most of the conversation seems to be around taxing mileage or putting up toll roads which IMO are both crap solutions.

Taxing mileage is, is highly regressive because less wealthy people drive tons more (they live farther out from the economic centers and more frequently justify driving farther to access goods more cheaply). However, less wealthy people do not shape public policy in the kinds of states that tend to be willing to try these things out so we'll likely wind up with mileage taxes that result in people in the expensive cities and inner ring suburbs paying the least and they will be able to justify it by pointing out that the less wealthy who live in city apartments and use public transit (which is generally how the more wealthy want the less wealthy to live) pay even less.

Taxing tires is a great idea because it's a naturally progressive tax though still loosely tied to overall use. The poors on their rock hard economy all seasons will pay less than the wealthy on their super sticky and soft summers and winters. Also tire cost scales well with weight of vehicle and the heaviest vehicles do the most damage to roads. That said, I can see a lot of bad 2nd order effects (that fuel tax is mostly immune to) if we start taxing tires so I am highly apprehensive. It would be a great time to own an alignment shop though.

IMO the best solution is to just accept that good transit infrastructure is in everyone's interest and fund roads directly with general tax revenue the same way we fund subways, municipal water/sewer, parks and almost every other piece of infrastructure. The net good of the marginal cost of use being so low that pretty much anyone can use as much as they want with no cost other than opportunity cost has immense benefits to society.

I think that makes sense. I wonder if enough people see it that way and what sources of that general tax revenue would increase to offset the lost revenue from gas tax.

Per mile charging. Your car reports where it goes using a black box rather like what some insurance companies install then you get taxed based on how many miles you travelled.

How does this work for antique cars or people removing the black box?

The exemptions that electric cars currently enjoy will eventually be phased out so quite a lot of the shortfall will disappear in the future. The only remaining shortfall will be the petrol taxes and I suspect that this will eventually be recouped by some variety of road pricing or mileage tax which will be unfortunate because it is a regressive tax as has been pointed out by another comment here. It is likely to happen because Norwegian authorities are very willing to impose tolls; road pricing or mileage taxes are but a small step from there.

in most European countries (as far as I am aware) vechiles themselves are taxed in so called road tax.

you pay a higher amount if your car causes more damage to the road.

Many states in the US do this too through registration. The cost varies by state. In my state, total gas taxes would be about $200 per year for an average driver, with the registration fee being about $50 ($90 for pickup trucks).

> In the US roads are mostly maintained by taxes on gas.

This is a common misconception. Most road funding comes from the Fed and state/local income and property taxes. Gasoline taxes exist but do not comprise the majority of funding. It's important to emphasize this because I pay a LOT in taxes but don't even so much as own a car, so I'm paying way more than my fair share for road upkeep.

The solution would be simple -- tax based on odometer reading (and do it federally, so you can't get around it by moving cars between states). Every year as part of your taxes you'd look at your odometer and then pay an amount per mile driven since last year, and periodic vehicle registration renewals would keep people honest (there'd be the same kind of penalty fee there as for paying taxes late). So long as all the states require vehicle registration and send that data to the feds, it'll work. The states could also have their own tax on top.

I never said it was a sole source, but it is a large source (I thought the largest source). Do you have the breakdown of funding sources?

Most of your property tax (depending on state) is going to schools, not roads. For example, my school tax is about $3700 per year, while county tax is about $500 and local income tax is maybe $500. The county and local taxes support courts, parks, police, fire, public transport, etc. Yes, some does go to road maintenance, especially projects like bike lane and crosswalk programs, but that is relatively little. I pay about $400 per year in gas taxes, $90 in registration, and $90-120 in tolls each year (pre covid). Federal road money comes from a federal gas tax (not sure if there are other sources added since that was a big issue a decade ago).

Enforcement of the odometer reading might be tricky, especially at the state level for states without periodic inspections. It could work though. The reason I mentioned tires is because they are a consumable part and have treadwear ratings for how long they should last. It would be self-enforcing, to a degree, at the consumer level. Enforcement would be at the manufacturer or distributor level to collect the tax.

I'm jealous. Tennessee (in the US) has no incentives for electric cars and actually charges a high "EV fee" for annual vehicle registration since they aren't getting the gasoline tax.

Does Norway have any incentives/subsidies for electric bikes or scooters?

According to this website, there is a discount on the VAT when buying an electric bikes in Norway:

> https://kontohjelp.no/kontering/elsykkel/elsykkel-til-bruk-i...

The official website of the Norwegian tax authority also has some details which mentions scooters (Norwegian: Ståhjuling) as well:

> https://www.skatteetaten.no/en/rettskilder/type/uttalelser/p...

The VAT discount as discussed in the links apply when a company acquires an electric bike for company use. It does not as far as I know apply to private citizens which pay the normal VAT rate.

There have been some municipal subsidy schemes for private citizen where you upon sending a receipt of an electric bike purchase will get some money back. They are however often temporary as they only budget a given amount for the scheme.

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