Some healthcare workers refuse to take Covid-19 vaccine
latimes.com
latimes.com
Probably many people wonder now if the vaccine really is safe, or if it's just "the right thing to do" at the population level to get a lot of people vaccinated even if it's not safe. Hard to regain trust after dropping the ball so hard too many times.
Can someone who disagrees explain why I should suddenly not listen to the experts with skin in the game (hospital-based medical professionals) and instead listen to the same "experts" who said that we should not wear masks and should not close borders? And how many of those experts have publicly taken the vaccine, anyways? Seems almost like they've slotted themselves after the front-line workers.
https://medlineplus.gov/covid19vaccines.html
It points to this CDCP info: '8 Things to Know about the U.S. COVID-19 Vaccination Program'. Readable, to-the-point information, chicken-little free.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/8-things....
Frequently Asked Questions about COVID-19 Vaccination
Most importantly is that it’s perfectly valid for someone to be hesitant to take a newly released medical treatment. You won’t convince anyone to take the vaccine without first admitting their concerns are valid and trying to address them.
I would say there are two major groups who would most reasonably decline a vaccine. First, is anyone who has already had COVID. Natural immunity is more effective than the vaccine at preventing COVID, and I don’t know of a single case of someone spreading COVID after recovering. The vaccine on the other hand is not proven to prevent spread, and is not proven to provide longer duration immunity than natural infection. The article makes no mention at all of what percentage of health care workers declined a vaccine because they are already naturally immune.
Second, is anyone who is pregnant, as the vaccine is completely untested in that scenario. Curiously, TFA’s only specific example of someone who declined is someone who was pregnant.
Given the efficacy of the vaccine, anyone who hasn’t already had COVID who doesn’t want to get COVID should take the vaccine. Anyone who hasn’t already had COVID who doesn’t mind taking the risk of getting COVID can pass on it. We should give doses to those who want it, as fast as possible. Doses sitting on shelves are the biggest problem, because we are overly concerned with micromanaging the queue.
It’s like loading passengers on a plane. Going from front to back in strict order is the slowest possible way to do it. As I recall, a purely random ordering will load the plane at nearly the optimal rate, and if you include the time outside the plane spent on ordering, random is by far the fastest. COVID vaccination rate probably works about the same way.
EDIT: typo
You have no evidence of this and at least weak evidence to the contrary--both for COVID and other viral diseases.
The human immune system seems to be capable of clearing COVID with with the innate, non-specific immune response--especially in younger people. This will not necessarily provoke the antibody response that gives long term immunity.
A vaccine, on the other hand, is engineered to provoke a long-term response from the antibody system.
There have been tens of millions of people infected, and it’s front page news when they find someone who has been re-infected.
They put the vaccine at about 95% whereas natural immunity is clearly upwards of 99.9%.
Absolutely false. As I pointed out, I've seen multiple cases myself, as have many of my colleagues. Not only are they not newsworthy, they are hardly interesting at this point.
That's not true for any disease known to man.
In addition, the reason why reinfections are so "rare" medically is that the criteria for it are so stringent.
The patient has to have a positive COVID test, get over COVID, have a negative COVID test after long enough to believe that the virus cleared, catch the disease again after some time, and then get another positive test.
There are very few people who will meet that criteria given the rarity of COVID tests until about October.
Sadly, given the current rate of spread and the anecdotal evidence from others about reinfections, we should start getting enough people in that cohort to begin estimating the reinfection rate.
On the other hand, with the covid vaccine not all injections are equal: some people have a higher risk of catching the virus, a higher risk of complications from the virus, a higher impact on society if they are off sick, a higher chance of spreading the virus, etc.
The aim is thus to get the maximum effect with each injection, especially when the supply of vaccines is limited.
Healthcare workers are critical and are at higher risk of catching the virus and of spreading the virus. For some of them at least vaccination should be mandatory for maximum impact and patients safety.
There is also symbolism and example: if healthcare professionals are wary of getting vaccinated then it sends a very bad message to the public that they should probably be wary as well instead of encouraging uptake.
In some countries, the President/PM took the jab live on TV. That's a form of leading by example and I believe healthcare workers of a responsibility to society on those issues.
This is false. The person you refer to, April Lu, is not the only specific example in the article, just the first. The second is Nicholas Ruiz, who I think it’s safe to say is not pregnant.
Instead I would recommend the following.
1. Set a goal of the "best guess" of number of people needed to get herd immunity. Notice I said "best guess", we are never going to get it right, we are unlikely to actually completely achieve herd immunity. But compared to where we are now with a very small portion of the population having any immunity, and 70-85% of our citizens being vaccinated is a hell of a lot better then where we are now.
2. Plaster that count of people who have gotten immunized everywhere, time square, bottom of evening news, upper right of every newspaper. Make it aspirational for the nation to hit this number
3. Now for the hard part, when we hit it, remove protective measures. Yes its possible hospitals still have COVID patients, but I guarantee it will not be this crazy level of infection if we have 85% vaccination or similar. We will instead have isolated flare ups which can be dealt with on a regional basis. The US did this with small pox several decades ago. They would lockdown neighborhoods or even towns as flare ups happened. I've talked with seniors going through this about being in previous lockdowns when they were children, we have just forgotten this far back.
4. Now for the stick. I believe OSHA has indicated it is within an employers right to require vaccination, especially related to the pandemic. Use this aggressively. Pass protections for businesses, particularly freaking health care facilities, to consider failure to vaccinate (without certain medical exceptions) as cause for termination. It can be a gradual thing as vaccine availability comes online perhaps they are offered remote work if possible. However, when it hits general availability and you are still declining, then ultimately the business can't have you on their facility (or open themselves up to liability for unsafe work environment) and thus you are terminated. You are perfectly able to continue to decline, that is your right, but that does not mean you have continued employment at this organization.
In closing, I like all of you are freaking tired of this thing. I want to see the country looking forward to that magic day when this pandemic is over. Remember, the Flu from 1918 never went away, it just got a hell of a lot less deadly and people gained more immunity. It still throws our hospitals for a loop when we have a bad flu year. The goal is not to end COVID, it is instead immunity to the vast majority of us until the virus, naturally, continues its evolution to a less deadly form, and our population's immune system adapts as well. Here is hoping 2021-2022 has all the similarities of the roaring 20's after the 1918 flu, I'm certainly ready for a good time again!
I think a reasonable approach to the vaccine should at least include an optional roll out period. Some jobs require some vaccines, but these vaccines are well studied and have been used for decades. With a new vaccine, there are a number of factors that still need to be determined. The pregnant healthcare worker in the article is a great example of why flexibility is needed. Many existing vaccines are not recommended for pregnant women, and we don't have data on how this plays out for the new mRNA vaccines.
This behaviour sends an appalling message to the public.
Frankly, there should be serious consequences for the staff involved.
1. Some health workers might have different views, including very wrong ones on any kind of treatment. What does that change?
2. It does not. Whistle blowers always existed and in this case they are just wrong. You cannot control the mind of the whole medical industry.
3. I would also disagree with this one even if I don't agree with the staff that rejected the vaccines. They have their right to having their own opinion and that's good. I am free to disagree and I will.
Your comment illustrates what's wrong in the US and the West in general in a situation like this and has been made painfully visible this year even before this: individualism taken to the extreme, no consideration at all for the common good, no political courage to act in the common good above individuals.
The vaccine given to people has received approval from the relevant health authorities and is being rolled out as a matter of national priority in all countries. It is the best shot we have at ending this pandemic. Medical staff are at high risk and they are also critical, and people obviously look up to them on healthcare issues.
Therefore, medical staff have a duty (a concept that seems completely forgotten these days) to get vaccinated when called both for themselves, their patients, and as example to the public at large.
If that goes against their personal beliefs then they are in the wrong profession and should quit or be fired.
I find comments are made much better (are more likely to influence someone’s thoughts) by just deleting these parts.
Try to communicate out of a desire to learn first, inform second, and just skip the shaming.
I believe I made a point that is relevant and that has also been discussed in the media this year. A condescending attempt to dismiss it is poor form.
Lines like this make some people prone to just dismissing what you have to say because you come off as anti-US, anti-Western, pro-communist, or whatever they perceive that line to imply. It also looks like you are virtue-signaling to people who already share your point of view.
Something I often hear at work about me that is valid here is "People rarely disagree with what you say but they disagree strongly with HOW you say it".
We both may wish people didn't care about the "how" if the "what" is correct but that's not the world we live in.
That being said certain people like the pregnant woman that feels we don't have enough data if there are any I'll effects on that particular group seems relatively valid.
Is there any previous vaccine that this has ever been true of? If it was wouldn’t that enable the disease to continue to be rampant among groups who were not vaccinated?
> The science behind this seeming contradiction is relatively straightforward. Vaccines like Pfizer’s and Moderna’s are injected into deep muscle and provide so-called systemic immunity. But they may still leave areas, particularly nasal mucous passages, where the virus is relatively free to multiply. Even without making the host sick, that virus can then potentially spread through coughing or sneezing, just as it is spread by a person with a full-blown coronavirus infection.
Presumably, you would want to be vaccinated because it provides protection from contracting COVID. If you and anyone who wants it can get personal immunity, why does it matter others do?
That's very obviously my point...
You don't seem to realise how damaging their behaviour is for the uptake of the vaccine in the population at large. Nor do you seem to realise that this is not only a matter of personal immunity. The more people are vaccinated the more difficult it is for the virus to spread.
I think it would be helpful to clarify if you will personally refuse to get a vaccine because some healthcare workers will not, or are you talking about other people and excluding yourself?
If the former, the position is confusing because it holds that the choice of HC workers is wrong, but still allows it to have sway over your actions. If the latter, what sets your decision making process apart from the general population.
>Nor do you seem to realise that this is not only a matter of personal immunity. The more people are vaccinated the more difficult it is for the virus to spread.
Please explain it to me. Once everyone who wants personal immunity has access to the vaccine, why does it matter if the virus spreads?
Because I don't base my health decisions on what nurses do or do not believe, for example.
My mother took a chemistry class for her permanent teaching certificate. It was a really good chemistry class and book--the book taught 6th grader me so much chemistry that I never took another chemistry class in my entire engineering education (electrical engineer--so not so critical).
The class had a bunch of nurses finishing up their training. The nurses complained bitterly about how hard the class was and that it was the blocker for graduating--in spite of it practically avoiding all math.
Cogitate on that--20+ year old college students couldn't understand a book that a 6th grader could.
Just because someone is a nurse doesn't automatically make them an authority on health decisions.
> Frankly, there should be serious consequences for the staff involved.
That will likely happen after Covid. Right now, everywhere is so short of staff that nobody is going to risk offending a qualified nurse and having them walk.