Tesla Service Centers Are Preventing Delivery Refusals in Weird Ways
insideevs.com
insideevs.com
Jeez, I was thinking of getting a model Y but some of these stories are scary.
Also the video and images in the link show some pretty bad quality engineering.
Tesla has also apparently just ended their money-back guarantee. Tough to imagine buying a new one now. Maybe a year or two old, where you can fully inspect it before committing. I don't know that I want to deal with their service either though. Fortunately there are a lot more EVs coming on the market now.
This mindset just baffles the hell out of me. Why? Just...why? You're paying a staggering amount of money for something that's broken from the start and the seller's response is "well, that sucks, doesn't it?" and you turn around and still like what you got sold?
All of the hassle involved in buying a car, new or used, is a big reason why my family didn't replace our last one when it went out of service. It's disappointing that an "all-new entrant" to the automaker scene like Tesla falls into the same sort of take-it-or-leave-it stuff that used car lots have long been known for.
And there is no other practical (ie road trips) EV in the US.
These stories tend to be outliers, most people don’t know what a panel gap is and would never think to measure the ground clearance.
That doesn't excuse poor engineering. You also might measure ground clearance if you can't park your car:
" His car has a 12 cm (4.7 in) ground clearance, which will not allow him to enter his parking spot – hence his concern about it. "
Nearly all car manufacturers have adaptive cruise control somewhere in their lineup - they just don't claim to reach FSD with the currently used hardware. But almost all are actively researching FSD with different hardware.
Making EVs doesn't make you a tech company. ICE are even more complicated than electric engines and Tesla doesn't make their batteries themselves.
I'm getting strong WeWork vibes from Tesla's claim to be a tech company.
Adaptive cruise on the other hand is great, but all modern cars have that.
The real issue though is that it's harder to remain alert when the car is effectively doing everything for you... until it doesn't.
Also don’t let the car ping pong, if it loses the lane marking then the car will keep on lane changing with impunity
See Boeing 737 Max and it’s infamous autopilot
I know about the comparisons to a plane's autopilot, but when driving you don't have the luxury of minutes to react. The name puts an image of confidence in drivers' minds while failing to deliver.
(I don't own a Tesla; I just find they terribly misnamed the feature.)
In asking that question, my guess is that you’ve never experienced being a Tesla owner. And that’s fair. I’m a Tesla owner myself, for full disclosure.
I’ve found that a Tesla is truly a computer on wheels; not unlike an iPhone is a computer in your hand. In many ways, Tesla is a software company that makes their own hardware. Unlike every other auto manufacturer, their software has full and complete control over every aspect of their hardware. Their hardware-software vertical integration is for real. They also have single software releases that deploy OTA to their whole fleet of in-service “devices.” From a software and release engineering perspective, incumbent auto manufacturers are decades behind.
> Nearly all car manufacturers have adaptive cruise control somewhere in their lineup
I’d argue the difference is that _every_ vehicle Tesla sells today is cable of being upgraded to the latest state of autonomy—just by an OTA software update and/or flipping some feature flags. While the claim of full Level 5 autonomy without lidar is controversial, it’s possible that most Teslas on the road today will be capable of being upgraded to L5 capability via a software update.
All that said, the QA issues in those photos are pretty jarring. No excuses there.
Sounds like you might not have "experienced being a Tesla owner". There are a ton of Tesla's which, according to the company, will definitely require hardware updates for full self-driving.
https://www.tesla.com/support/full-self-driving-computer
They're not a tech company, but they think (and loudly say) they are, and that causes these kinds of problems. Using tech jargon does not a tech company make.
How can you claim the current hardware on Teslas is capable of L5 when they haven’t even demonstrated L4 capability? Just saying it’s capable for full autonomy doesn’t actually make it so, they need to actually prove it.
Also, you (and Elon Musk) talk about Level 5 so casually when all the self driving companies out there strictly claim to aim for only Level 4.
The question was why it is possible. Not why "it should work today", nor "why it will most definitely 100% happen guaranteed in the next couple of years".
The real answer is nobody knows whether current hardware is enough or not, including Tesla. Until they demonstrate it, it’s just a claim. But they can’t sell the cars on FSD promise if they say it.
Theoretically, yes. But that’s different than confidently claiming it’s “perfectly possible” and that it’s only a question of computation and modeling.
"it’s possible that most Teslas on the road today will be capable of being upgraded to L5 capability via a software update."
He didn't say it will definitely guaranteed happen.
The antonym of the word possible is impossible, which if you try in that same sentence you'll see that it doesn't make any sense that way.
While I personally don't agree with your claim that "tesla categorically saying" those things, the poster still did say it even less.
This is what Tesla claim:
The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates.
I also personally know several Tesla owners and none of them interpret the company's claims the way you do. So who are all these people who you think are defrauded or lied to? Where are all the angry buyers who thought they were getting Level 5?
I'm responding to Tesla's official claims about FSD hardware.
> You are welcome to present any links or quotes as to where you got the idea that Tesla claims that the vechicle is guaranteed to have FSD in some specific claimed time period (including a time period within each individual vechicle's lifespan).
Way to move the goal post. This whole thread is about hardware, not OTA software updates or a timeframe to deliver FSD. They've repeatedly claimed since 2016 that all Teslas have necessary hardware for Level 5 functionality. I've explained in this comment chain why that claim is disingenuous.
Source: https://www.theverge.com/2016/10/19/13340938/tesla-autopilot... and repeated Elon Musk tweets.
This reminds me of something or rather some people as it oozes marketing speak when the experience of being a [product] owner is being talked about.
> not unlike an iPhone is a computer in your hand
And there it is.
No, most people would just describe this as 'general poor quality'.
Six Sigma quality manufacturing is all based on reducing deviation and defects - these are red flags.
And although they might not know to check these things, I think if you explained to the average consumer that some cars are 25% lower to the ground, while some are 25% higher, because of general manufacturing inaccuracy, they wouldn't be impressed.
Too many decades of Americans buying whatever car happens to be sitting on the lot today (usually in silver paint with beige interior) means that most vehicles aren't available with any real selection of options (they're typically packaged together), no interesting paint colors, and dealers that are uninterested in finding what you actually want. It's staggering to me that people apparently feel they don't have any power to get what they want when laying out a huge chunk of money.
Source: ordered a 2017 Chrysler Pacifica. Couldn't order 15" wheels with premium trim. Ordered a spare tire, and got the built-in vacuum instead (this worked out OK, the donut spare, ordered separately, fits under in the middle seat stowage, if you finagle it). Still would have prefered 15" wheels over 17" or whatever we had to order, but not enough to buy new wheels. Would not recommend buying that early in the model cycle, but that's somewhat separate from ordering; except that they had no Pacificas on the lot to sell anyway, so it wasn't too hard to convince them to order one.
>“In Hong Kong, any new car demands a 100 percent tax. Electric cars had no tax, so I bought the Model S and the Model X. Now we have to pay a 25-percent tax on EVs, which is still lower than with regular combustion-engined vehicles, but what will happen to the company when these incentives are over? Will people still want to buy cars that seem to come from a junkyard?”
He's not complaining about the service, because the car is half the price of any other car. It's like complaining that a Chevrolet Aveo is small and the engine is underpowered.
he doesn't even have what he paid for though
Things that happen in Silicon Valley and also the Soviet Union:
- waiting years to receive a car you ordered, to find that it's of poor workmanship and quality
— In 10 years what difference does it make?
— I have the plumber in the morning.”
(Russian jokes told by Reagan)
Translation:
There were also extreme cases. Some of them were so sloppy that they prevented safe participation in road traffic. One of the readers of “Motor” received the FSO 1500, in which a factory defect in the body made its driving almost impossible. In the TV program “Kram”, aired on October 12, 1986, an interview was conducted with a man who found 41 defects in a new car he had bought. After consulting with an expert, it was found that there were 45 of them. There was an opinion that in order to drive the new Polonez without any problems, it was necessary to invest 100,000 zlotys in its renovation (~10% of total value). These cars, however, passed the zero inspection without any problems. The sentence of one of the engineers working at FSM can be considered the best justification for this: “People will buy any car”
Part of why this keeps happening is Elon knows it’s possible to deliver x many cars so he pushes even if it hurts quality. They end up pulling it off and that ends up as justification to push harder. Probably cheaper in the long run to fix the cars post sale. I’ve had a few issues but they fixed without question.
This is just pure WTF!?:
They said the car was too heavy for its suspension components. Both the lower and upper wishbone in my Model X cracked due to the heavy weight.
EVs are new so one could expect some roughness around those parts, but the basics like body/frame/suspension have been around for more than half a century.
I wonder if you went to buy a car 60-70 years ago, from one of the Big Three, what were the chances of getting one with such defects?
I'm curious whether they can fix this on time, because VW is making progress on the EV side of things and several other big car brands aren't far behind.
The fact that the car doesn't fully discharge or fully charge unless asked to is nothing revolutionary.
I'm a nonbeliever obviously, my opinion is that their only truly unique features is the inflated stock price.
1: https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium...
IIRC they used less cobalt.
I think people need to stop cutting car manufacturers slack on this stuff, they've had time to get it right.
Bodywork in cars has been stamped metal for atleast 70 years, if not more. while it is a delicate and complicated process, it has been done countless of times before.
Ask the person who accepted it, perhaps?
It's "take it, or leave your money, and maybe we will get around to fixing it eventually".
There is a sucker born every minute. Does any one really think their extra 6k for FSD will get switched on before the end of the cars life?
Things work differently in Michigan. Ford deliveries of the new F-150 pickup trucks were held up as they shipped them to a lot outside the city where non-union help fixed the manufacturing defects. This is how the Big 3 operates fixes manufacturing defects.
Rework in the yard, on the other hand, is "soft", it can can be parallelized across as many workers as you can deploy, and they're usually contractors so you only bring them in when you need them.
So if cars can be finished enough to roll 'em through end-of-line and then into yard hold, that's what you do. Clean it up as soon as possible of course, but whatever you do, don't stop the line.
One of the principles of Toyota’s process is that they will stop the assembly line to fix defects. This sounds simple, but other manufacturers will keep the assembly line moving, putting pressure on workers to complete their steps faster.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Production_System
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Toyota_Way
One of the classic case studies is the Fremont Assembly plant in Fremont, California, which was run by GM until 1982 when it closed due to production problems. It was considered an embarrassment to the US automotive industry. Cars from the Fremont plant would come off the assembly line with major defects and they couldn’t be shipped to dealers. When I say “major defects”, think “this car can’t be shipped to a dealer, because it is missing a door.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fremont_Assembly
Toyota needed to manufacture vehicles in North America and created a joint venture with GM called NUMMI, which reopened the plant in 1984—manufacturing both GM and Toyota vehicles. The existing workforce was sent to Japan to learn Toyota’s manufacturing system. The defect rate dropped dramatically after Toyota’s involvement. GM attempted to take what they learned from Toyota and bring it to other factories in the US, but failed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI
For various reasons, the plant shut down in 2010. It is now a Tesla plant.
It probably wasn't intended that way, but that's such a beautiful irony. Similar to the dark humor of writing of Catch 22 and other books.
Describe all the technological and managerial achievements and progresses of the system that is supposedly so much better than the one mentioned before (Tesla), and how it documentedly better, and produces so many good results and tolerating so many struggles, only to find out that it still was replaced by none other than Tesla. I guess they bet on the things that mattered even more.
TSLA is doing well, but that has little or nothing to do with Tesla the auto manufacturer, and it certainly doesn't dictate their "size".
I know nothing about manufacturing for cars or anything else, but ... why can't doors be engineered to just fit? In terms of absolute tolerances, I'm guessing all the stuff in the engine or transmission for a typical car is far more stringent, right? Is there something specific to the manufacturing process for doors or frames that is less controlled or precise?
The point is these adjustments are (or should be) made in the factory, not with post-delivery reworking.
So manufacturers will do what they can to control for this but it will always be an issue as long as the input material is as inconsistent as it is.
Unlike software, the real world is messy, and while of course it is technically feasible to mill a whole door and a chassis out of a billet it wouldn't be economical. So we adjust during manufacturing to cover the variations.
Alternatively you could pre-bend the doors in a machine for each body, after welding.
But probably cheapest indeed to have a station late in the assembly line with people manually twisting the doors to fit, as is the standard practice.
> Giga-Sweatshop Meets Corporate Overlords: an Exclusive Look Into How Tesla China Runs its Shanghai Gigafactory 3
Disclosure: I’ve joined the suspension class action in the US.
I have two colleagues who got Model X's, they both drove as much Model S the first 6 months (at least) after getting the vehicle as the quality was so subpar. One door had to be repainted because the gull wings were scraping against eachother, panel gaps, the car started to kernel panic after an update and was immobilized, the list goes on (This is only what i know off, i stopped asking after awhile).
It's only a sample size of two, but I've never heard of anything like it before. I wouldn't want that from a 1.5MSEK purchase. The problem is that they won't just magically become better without lowering production speeds, which they can't to because then the stock might just finally pop. So buying a Tesla you're stuck getting something rushed together rather sloppily. Go Lexus/Toyota unless you really need the Tesla "cool factor" but rather a good vehicle.
A car door that doesn't quite shut and lets water in is a major annoyance, but if they start breaking down left right and centre, that could crush them. Among established car brands, failure rates are a major decision factor.
Or maybe it will turn out these are mostly superficial issues, who knows. I'm not convinced.
Despite recent events, I don't think this is necessarily a safe assumption. Many of Hong Kong's organisations, such as the ICAC (Independent Commission against Corruption) originate from the previous British administration and will be very different from any corresponding organisations in the PRC.
Mass-produced economy brands can't afford to have any returns. The service network is poor to non-existent.
I have a gas car / hybrid for the 100mile+ road trips we take once every 60 days.
And I have an EV for the daily driver. Nissan Leaf has more than enough range (for daily driving) cost 6-7k, insurance is $20/month, and I’ve yet to have any maintenance issues.