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Comment by Alupis | Hacker News Reader

There is a big difference between slave/forced labor and paying for cheap labor.

Majority of your examples state something along the lines of "paying inmates peanuts to make expensive things"... which literally is not the definition of slave labor.

The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps. There is no comparison with any of the things in your list.

Most people would also agree, providing a purpose - jobs, training and skills to inmates is a net win for everyone involved, and is a core component in rehabilitation - directly combating rescindance.

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Oh yeah, these companies are totally doing this for the public good and not just simply exploiting cheap labor. And considering how hard it is for an ex con to get a job, I doubt this has any major impact on recidivism.

That is a debate worth having - but calling cheaply paid prison labor "Slave Labor", or equivocating it to Chinese Forced Labor Camps is disingenuous and dishonest.

They are flatly not the same, even if you believe it's debatably exploitive.

Considering the rise of convict leasing programs across the south after the passing of the 13th amendment, I’d say there was very little difference.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convict_leasing

> The practice peaked around 1880, was formally outlawed by the last state (Alabama) in 1928, and persisted in various forms until it was abolished by President Franklin D. Roosevelt via Francis Biddle's "Circular 3591" of December 12, 1941.

You use something that was ended (because people thought it was wrong!) nearly a century ago as supporting evidence for what exactly?

It wouldn’t be like paying prisoners literal pennies is a way of getting around the law that made convict leasing illegal.

Convict Leasing is different, and people felt strongly enough that it was bad that the laws were changed (nearly 100 years ago!).

Now the prisoners can get paid some wages in return for labor, in a mostly voluntary labor system.

Unlike the CCP, every inmate had a trial and was found guilty of some crime, and is now repaying their debt to society - as it were.

What did the million Muslims in the article get convicted of in China? Being Muslims? What about the Uyghurs? So now they are slaves for the rest of their lives...

Yes we all know how fair and just the American criminal system is and paying pennies is vastly different than paying nothing.

Nobody said these companies are doing a public good...

The main difference is punishing someone who did commit a crime vs someone who did not. As simple as that.

Except they did when they said “ Most people would also agree, providing a purpose - jobs, training and skills to inmates is a net win for everyone involved, and is a core component in rehabilitation - directly combating rescindance.”

I’m not down playing the Chinese labor camps, I’m taking issue with claiming the prison labor in the US is some moral good. It’s exploiting people, not attempting to rehabilitating them.

You're forgetting the prison labor programs in the US are largely voluntary.

I say largely because there are some cases where punishment dictates certain number of hours worked, etc... but we're splitting hairs at this point.

Then why aren’t they paid a fair wage? Keep moving the goal post, but these people are being exploited.

Yes, you can indeed continue to move the goal posts, but acknowledge we're far into the weeds and even further from what the article focused on - Religious Slave Labor Camps in China.

Why aren't inmates paid a "fair" wage? Well, that's up for debate and I think I'd enjoy hearing pros and cons.

Some cons I could think of are:

* These are inmates, serving a sentence as punishment for a crime they were convicted of.

* Most of their living expenses are already provided.

* Alternatives include doing nothing all day instead of a job.

* If inmate labor cost what non-inmate labor costs, why would anyone hire inmates?

* The labor programs are largely voluntary.

* The money earned is used as a reward for participation, good behavior, and showing a willingness to work and get along with other inmates. Misbehave and you don't get to work, and don't earn money.

Now maybe it is time to step up some sort of minimum wage for inmates... but that doesn't distract from atrocities the CCP is committing in present day.

I’m not the one moving the goal post, I remain steadfast that they are being exploited and every time I point this out you give a slightly different reason as to why they are not. First it was the two systems (China vs US) are vastly different, then it was the convict leasing was ended, then it was voluntary (except when it isn’t), then it was at least they get paid, then it was well they are criminals so they deserve it.

> * These are inmates, serving a sentence as punishment for a crime they were convicted of.

If the gaol sentence is their punishment, why are they being penalised further by reduced wages?

> * If inmate labor cost what non-inmate labor costs, why would anyone hire inmates?

Government-backed incentives. It's in everyone's best interests for people convicted of crimes to have a path back on to the straight-and-narrow. Investing in reducing recidivism is far better value for money than almost any other anti-crime measures.

> * The labor programs are largely voluntary. [...] Alternatives include doing nothing all day instead of a job.

These statements are contradictory.

“The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps”

Actually it’s not... did you read it?

The central allegation is that a few thousand Xinjiang Muslims were offered employment possibly in exchange for political indoctrination.

There’s a side allegation that prisoners are also being put to work in factories. There’s no allegation let alone evidence that this is without compensation. And the pennies offered in US prisons hardly count, and certainly don’t absolve the US justice system of the conflict of interest one can allege upon seeing how profitable it is for localities to throw people in jail.

> “The article is about literal Chinese Slave Labor camps”

> > Actually it’s not... did you read it?

Yes, but apparently you did not. Here's the quote:

> Xinjiang, in the far reaches of Western China bordering Afghanistan, Pakistan and other Muslim-majority countries, is facing a brutal crackdown by China’s government, which has placed more than a million Muslims in concentration camps or forced them to work in factories making everything from cotton to soft drinks to electronics.

Trying to spin this off as some sort of voluntary job thing is extremely disingenuous. Almost as disingenuous as trying to spin paid prison labor in the US as slave labor.

That’s side-allegation, not what this article is about.

And it’s a debatable one.

Are we reading the same article?

You stated:

> The central allegation is that a few thousand Xinjiang Muslims were offered employment possibly in exchange for political indoctrination

It's a million, and they were not offered employment. They were "transferred" and forced to work in factories, among other places.

Did you know how such a whole number of one million come to be? Apparently eight persons were asked about their heresay and then someone extend the result to the whole population of xinjiang..

Simply do a quick search for Xinjiang forced labor; you will find endless reports from the world's most credible sources. What is your basis for saying it's debatable?

You argue every point, but what do you think should be done?

"...Xinjiang Muslims were offered employment possibly in exchange for political indoctrination."

"Offered employment in exchange for political indoctrination"? What exactly does that mean?

What? Paying someone (a pittance, mind) doesn't make forced labor not slavery. Read the 13th amendment.

Paying someone for labor kind of does make it not slavery - by the very definition of the word "slave" and "slavery".

Or are you attempting to redefine the word "slave"?

Nope, that is not the distinguishing factor. Historically, money was used as an incentive for slave labor done especially well. That does not prevent it from being slavery.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/slave-labour/

You have an uphill battle to convince anyone being paid (any amount) for voluntary labor is akin to slave labor.

I take issue with describing it as "voluntary", when the alternative is a longer prison sentence. It is paid a pittance, and is effectively involuntary.

> when the alternative is a longer prison sentence

That's simply untrue.

"Even though, in a lot of cases, it is technically voluntary, there can be serious consequences for people who refuse to work or who advocate for better working conditions because a lot of prisoners use working as a way of having their sentences reduced."

Source: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/884989263

In that section of the article they are discussing labor internal to the prison, specifically maintenance and daily chores. Yes, it is true, while in prison you do not have a choice but to participate in that kind of labor and refusal will not help you be released early for "good behavior" or anything similar.

External labor, the kind discussed here - contracted by a 3rd party for money - is voluntary.

Modern slavery in the US often works by bringing people in from another country, requiring them to pay for lodging and food at a "company store," and paying low enough wages that their debt steadily increases. Then you hold their passports and tell them they can't leave until they're paid up.

It's illegal, of course, because it's literally slavery despite the window-dressing of money changing hands. But the slaves are vulnerable and don't necessarily know it's illegal, or they're threatened.

Examples?

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