Why China Turned Against Jack Ma
nytimes.com
nytimes.com
I can't even begin to imagine what similar companies in NA (e.g. Facebook) have on our elected officials.
That said, the idea is pretty hard in the way of conspiracy -- simplest reduction: why would tech companies take the risk of getting involved in that way at all? When they're already making money hand over fist?
That is not how finance works in any country
At the same time I also think what I've read about Ant Group makes me think that financially their ability to loan to folks with little to no collateral and offload the risk on other institutions is unwise and risky.
That’s not an attack, I just don’t know what you mean by power.
Xi can simply dictate the results.
Xi also cannot dictate an election result. At least there was no precedence. As there is only one candidate for the highest position. Of course, US has 2 candidates, how much better/worse? I don't know, anyone can judge themselves.
As a matter of fact, no election can be held in China. Election was never a thing anyone can understand. Like when I was in elementary school, the classroom head was appointed. No important position was ever elected.
You might stand before Xi, and claim that Xi would be powerless if China is to hold an election. And himself and mostly everyone statistically picked on street, would look at you bewildered, probably laugh hard and walks away like anyone who encounter some lunatic. The analogy could be a Chinese run to US Senate speech, and claim that communism is better for US. The next day all the media would laugh so hard that I bet even divided as Trump's US, everyone would unit and celebrate this rare consensus that this Chinese guys is mad. Essentially, both concepts are virtually foreign to each other's mental system. They cannot process them.
What I want to say is that, China runs a system that is neither democracy nor dictatorship, in western sense.
A lot of people hate China, they often think that's because China is oppressive or authoritarian. While in fact, China is far more exotic than oppressive or authoritarian.
I often speculate that people hate China out of the deep fear of unknown. Not only unknown, China is strong enough that they basically position themselves to be unshakable in the current geopolitical system, unlike the old empire, which also claim superiority and reject inspection, but they were not really strong enough to resist.
I guess China learned the lesson since the opium war: it's important to be actually powerful than just claiming to have the mandate of the heaven.
Ma on the other hand could well end up getting Epsteined.
These are not in the same ethical ballpark, and one doesn't have to be a US nationalist to recognize this.
If China was so great the Children of the US rich would go there to study. Instead they either stay in the US, or go to Europe/the Anglosphere if they want to be more cosmopolitan.
The reverse however is very true.
I'm sure it mainly came from rampant insider trading.
Regular corruption is fine in the West though, it's a victimless crime. For people who matter anyway, not the peasants who have to drink drilling oil fluid.
The point is that in the West there are clear and mostly unchanging rules that everyone knows.
In China not so much. Today you're the richest man in China, tomorrow you're an enemy of the people, next week you have tragically fallen to your death taking a selfie from a ladder. All while doing the same thing everyone else in your wealth bracket does.
One who think that secrets can coerce people, is treating the owners of the secrets as passive; which were never the behavior pattern of the powerful.
One who rises to the top, practices control and manipulate over others. Not the opposite.
As of 2021-01-04, it appears that's not all that's disappeared: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9108421/Chinese-tec...
> “An outstanding people’s billionaire like Jack Ma will definitely be hanged on top of the lamppost,”... The Communist Party seems more than willing to tap into that resentment.
I wonder given that Jack Ma hasn't been seen in two months, if the author would still juxtapose these two paragraphs in this way?
Xi’s reign is bad for China’s progress, but good for every other country. China will become more centralized and bad laws will be enforced which will disrupt all progress towards innovation. The danger of a Chinese metro surpassing Silicon Valley is gone for now.
The longer Xi and his allies rule, the more China will remain destined to be a giant copy machine, nothing less and nothing more.
China's progress has been quite impressive recently. An intelligent benevolent dictator is probably the best form of government, the problem is that dictators rarely remain benevolent.
So far though, it looks like most of Xi's decisions have left China better off. Their infrastructure is now significantly better that the US. Investments abroad are positioning them well for the future, and they are even taking the lead in terms of carbon neutrality.
As for China’s current success, Xi has only come to power in recent years. If we’re being honest, Zhou Enlai and Deng Xiaoping deserve more credit For China’a current state than Xi for building the foundation and engine of China’s growth. Xi is only inheriting it, and will likely run it to the ground with his policies.
It is already a combination of Amazon + PayPal + Instacart + Netflix
Simply put, by its very nature China instills mistrust, distrust, and critique.
China does not have a great government, but American coverage of it is also extreme propaganda.
If we were to evaluate China objectively we would have to recognize its huge achievements. Living in China for much of the last 20 years and being able to witness the changes first hand, the subject often comes up in conversation both here and overseas. Without getting bogged down in tangential statistics, I generally point out that at the beginning of the 20th century, China was roughly parallel to India in many macro-economic metrics. Now look at the difference. It is a viable superpower, a space power, the world's renewable energy technology and perhaps also deployment leader (certainly e-vehicles), the world's reforestation leader, a far more educated (eg. popularly literate and numerate) and healthy (well fed) population, a population no longer dangerously expanding, corruption is under control, world leading mobile payments, world leading logistics, and it is at the center of the world's global supply chain (and consumption!) for almost every industry.
That said, China has many problems (living here is earth-shatteringly frustrating a lot of the time), @alisonatwork's comment is on the mark, and the achievements of the 20th century do not by any means excuse the grave and terrible costs, but to suggest that its government is inept in a hand-wave is shatteringly naive.
That’s the point: there is no bad information coming out of China, it’s always “positive,” like it was written by a PR team. No nation is perfect, but China works very hard so that nothing comes out of the country that is negative. By manipulating the news so that nothing is ever negative, you destroy all confidence in the accuracy of that reporting.
If China was serious about being a world power, worthy of respect, they wouldn’t work so hard to hide all the negative, censor, and punish people who speak the truth.
Then what do you consider the article this post is discussing? Or all of the stories mentioned in your other post?
If you are disgusted by some of the things the government did, wouldn’t it be more appropriate to specify that?
The Trump administration is absolutely a disaster and “didn’t do anything warrant a positive article,” but I wouldn’t call the U.S. names because of the government.
American people aren’t against climate change and exited Paris Climate Accord, the Trump administration did.
Ordinary Chinese citizen did not censor the reporters, the government did.
Your Nazi example makes no sense. I assume you can put some blame on the people who made the gas if they know its purpose. But you wouldn’t blame every German national during WWII for Genocide.
So you tell me: Who operates the Chinese concentration camps?
...is a false equivalence.
A lot of that goodwill started getting frittered away as the CCP were involved with events that appeared to threaten freedom/democracy and autonomy both in the China region and around the rest of the world. Just a few off the top of my head...
- 2016 Artificial islands and military bases built in South China Sea
- 2017 Four Corners report on CCP influence operations in Australia
- 2017 HRW report on Uighur reeducation camps
- 2018 Xi Jinping dissolves term limits
- 2018 Two Michaels detained
- 2019 Hong Kong National Security Law and protests
- 2020 Coronavirus
- 2020 Ladakh border skirmishes
There are lots more examples. Meanwhile, citizen journalists are being disappeared and foreign journalists are getting kicked out of the country, which is only making it more difficult to get independent reporting of what is going on.
Personally, I don't think it's so much that there is no positive reporting about China happening in the west any more, it's just that now the more optimistic stuff is balanced out by a more cynical take.
I'd argue there is US mass media manipulation. There's simply clear monetary (and nationalistic) incentive in riling Americans against an evil enemy. In my eyes, the US paints China as evil just as much as NK paints US as evil. Do you not think it's propaganda that all the news is one sided, have you not considered a scenario where Americans might have been planted a bias by the media?
Also, I'd be an effin' amazing impostor to act as a plant as a YC alum on HN with my username orange. Maybe China wired me some money.
“...well yeah but, it’s China!”
It’s unfortunate but How often do we see comments like that? China has been such a brutal, oppressive nation that it’s really hard to overlook, and accept at face value anything that comes out of it.
In the US, it is incredible how often reporters parrot security state talking points without any research into whether they're accurate, such as how people piled on Russia after the recent hacking scandal without any evidence shown, just a gut insinuation as far as I know.
The only advice I can give is: always be skeptical. period.
People without first hand experience often do not comprehend it, even if accept the argument logically. But when you live there, you grow up with the 6th sense of political momentum. It's as natural as breathing. You are not starting to shit on a powerful person in your country unless you sense a strong political tailwind.
Jack Ma was a governmental sponsored big tech monopoly that hated by many small merchants.
Now the government decided to punish Alibaba, so the crowds cheered, for whom the saddest part is the whole thing has little to do with them from start to end
No astroturf needed to find people who hate the rich in a society that punishes the poor.
Mr. Ma famously claimed that 996 is a blessing of fortune [1], despite the global outcry on 996, Jack was untouched almost entirely in the media and online circle. He probably was deemed a member of the entrepreneur class, which cannot be unethical I guess?
Jack said that he is not interested in money on CCTV (the national TV station) [2], a rather hypocritical statement.
He claimed that Chinese banking system works as pawnshop, while at the same time his Ant works like "payday loan". He claimed that Chinese financial system is not innovative enough, while Ant is repeating the same gambling practiced 10 years ago.
Jack joked that AI is Alibaba Intelligence in front of Elon Musk. Universally ridiculed in China.
Jack was a close friend of actress Zhao Wei was caught in camera of close interchanges, (Google 马云 赵薇) Mrs Zhao also participate Ant IPO through her mother. She was banned from security market for misconduct [3]. After that, Jack said they were not close at all [4].
There are plenty more. Probably most were censored already. These are just the most brazen ones I suppose.
Remember that Chinese were indoctrinated through Communism ideology. Mr. Ma can even appear in public is itself a proof that he is under the protection of CCP while he is still useful.
An ordinary citizen, showing these behaviors, would have to worry about their personal safety at all times; and would be mocked everyday online. Not for Mr. Jack Ma though.
Now let's see how far CCP wants to expose Mr. Jack Ma to the people's resentment...
[1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/15/business/jack-ma-996-china/in...
[2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oVi5EGbZy1A
[3] http://www.xinhuanet.com/fortune/2018-04/16/c_129851599.htm
https://3g.163.com/dy/article/ED813TL60542805D.html?spss=ada...
Are you saying that a sufficiently unpopular public figure would have a high likelihood of being physically attacked on the street?
Chinese netizens routinely make threats to public figures who make statements that are contradicting to common Orthodox. Mrs. Zhao Wei, the one I already mentioned above, and elsewhere in other posts, was once attacked by poops, because she wore clothes that has the imperial Japanese flag [3].
Then take a look at this [4], a teen used Ant's personal loan, and cannot repay, so she runs away, then her mom committed suicide.
Similar incidents happened a lot...
I am fairly sure that, some young Chinese vigilante, after reading this, had the conviction that Mr. Jack Ma probably is a bad man, and they are compelled to do something about it.
[1] https://amp.scmp.com/tech/tech-leaders-and-founders/article/...
[2] https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/90762149
[3] https://www.scmp.com/article/365213/pop-star-under-fire-posi...
Jail is for foreigners and well known people they want to silence, when they need to pretend there's a real justice system.
There's plenty of firsthand accounts of this stuff happening on the internet.