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In addition to the California law that has already been mentioned, would you care to comment on the Visa Product and Service Rules (which Stripe's TOS incorporates by reference) which state that if you process recurring payments, you must:

> Provide a simple cancellation procedure, and, if the Cardholder’s order was initially accepted online, at least an online cancellation procedure.

https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/about-visa/visa-rules...

In California it is illegal to not allow online cancellation for services signed up for online. No exceptions, it has nothing to do with children.

If I were your customer I would make a point of taking every legal avenue to punish you for this behavior, and the reasoning here guarantees I wouldn’t think of touching your product.

If I can delete my entire GitHub account and screw everything and everyone connected to it with a single red warning prompt you can bet your ass it's possible to online cancel a service that may in some edge cases affect a customer.

If you automated the on-boarding process to Baremetrics, you sure as hell can automate the un-boarding process.

Regardless, I don’t get why anyone uses Baremetrics, your dashboard is slow as shit and looks like your customer service is equally shit.

People are complaining that they don’t want to call you. And here you are asking people to call you.

Hiya--we're not a consumer service, so yeah, I'm asking people to call me. I'll respond a bit to this thread because HN is read by lots of folks, but it's also filled with trolls. Businesses talk to businesses. Especially when we're going to screw something up with low bandwidth communication. I'm a real dude and happy to chat to real folks running real businesses. Consumers should not be using our platform.

> HN is read by lots of folks, but it's also filled with trolls

Just wow..

Pretty funny that he says that about one of the most mature and well-behaved communities on the internet.

I guess everyone who disagrees with him is a troll.

I may have had my differences with the HN mods, but this place is NOT filled with trolls. If anything, it is quite troll free.

I’m not hung up on consumer vs business or legality. I’m trying to point out that you sticking to your guns in this situation sends the message that you don’t care about inconveniencing the people you’re doing business with. I understand these are soon-to-be-ex-customers who are about to have no value to you. But you have a chance here to leave them on good terms so they can recommend you to their friends. You are instead leaving a bad taste in their mouths.

Since you are targeting global customers, just FYI in a lot of European jurisdictions a written “expression of will” is enough. So nobody is buying this obligation to call ruse.

I've never seen a business talk to a business, actually.

Lawyers talk to each other so businesses don't have to. Which is where this might end up if Baremetrics has customers in California.

Only a fool would go get a lawyer instead of making a phone call. Especially, if you have employees who you can tell to make the phone call too. I suspect if you did get a lawyer the first thing they'll suggest is they call the number to get it cancelled and will ask if you called the number.

I'm not talking about a customer getting a lawyer involved. I'm talking about a DA looking into whether Baremetrics is violating CA law by not having an online-only cancellation option to corresponding with its online-only registration system.

I think Brian will be burned out in a week once unhappy customers start to call him

>Hiya--we're not a consumer service, so yeah, I'm asking people to call me.

Hey man, just wanted to let you know that you've accidentally placed free trial and mailing list buttons on your home page. Seeing as you're not a consumer service and all you probably want to take those down.

You've also accidentally integrated with the consumer service known as Stripe, who have the horribly consumerish feature of closing your account right in account settings. Might want to get on that before the Coalition of Serious Business finds out.

Uh, no, sending meat sounds over air is the worst form of communication ever, packed with ambient noise, other noise, aggressive compression, low volume, intermittent radio signal and heuristic commutation that works only every other time.

So, you're discriminating against deaf people? Boy, you're going down big. You have no idea.

This just smells of completely misunderstanding who you're targeting.

Good luck, you're going to need it.

I'm just going to put this out there, maybe he knows who he is targetting and it's not us.

Can only imagine how angry the original Baremetrics founder is watching you ruin his business' reputation in mere weeks.

> days

> we ended up finding that we can be critical to Stripe Webhooks processing for folks on the older Stripe API. We literally will take down your invoicing on Stripe when a customer cancels.

What does this even mean? Are you saying that if you remove a customer’s Stripe integration, it prevents them from being paid by their own customers?

I think he means if we are using their "Recover" product which I explained in my email that we absolutely don't use it.

https://baremetrics.com/features/recover

I think what they mean is this: if you're dissatisfied with invoice PDFs generated and sent by Stripe, it's fairly common to disable the sending and use an integration [0] to generate/send them out instead. And then if you cancel that integration, oops, your customers no longer get their invoices.

[0]: https://stripe.com/partners/apps-and-extensions/invoicing

Hmm, interesting. They must know that I (we) are not using this, because I didn't even know this feature exists and our customers are happy getting sent Stripe invoices.

For the sake of your business you need a buffer between you and the world.

> you can see from our revenue transparency that we're the last in line for making money

Maybe there are some social reasons for that. You've definitely lost face here.

If you offer a very convenient frictionless entry, you have to offer a frictionless exit.

Otherwise it's way too difficult to interpret it as anything else but a cheap and very sad way to keep a customer. A really sad business practice.

100% in agreement, that's how I felt too.

Curious what you would do for someone who is mute. Would you make them call you?

Lol, I want this question answered.

Mutes already know how to use a TTY relay service.

Why force them to use it when email might be better?

... or any other medical condition which affects voice or hearing. Deafness, Laryngitis, etc.

Or far more common: someone who doesn't speak English

Why are you guys obsessed with phonecalls?

No one believes you. Everyone sees this for what it is; a barrier to exit