Comment by webmaven | Hacker News Reader

Comment by webmaven | Hacker News Reader

Okay this is a bit meta, but the whole cluster of "everything old is new again", "the pendulum of fashion has swung", "nothing new under the sun" takes is ignoring what tends to drive this sort of change: relative costs.

The allure of xmlhttprequest was that over connections much slower than today, and with much less powerful desktop computers, a user didn't have to wait for the whole page to redownload and re-render (one can argue that focusing on better HTTP caching on the server and client might have been smarter) after every single user interaction. This was also much of the draw of using frames (which were also attractive for some front-end design use-cases later re-solved with CSS).

As apps got more complex, clients got more compute, bandwidth grew, and as web audiences grew, offloadingl much of the page rendering to the client helped to both contain server-side costs and increase or maintain responsiveness to user interactions.

Now, as desktop client performance improvement slows down (this isn't just the slowing of computer speeds, computers are also replaced less frequently), average bandwidth continues to grow, app complexity and sophistication continues to grow, but as server compute cost falls faster than audience size grows, shifting rendering to HTML back to the server and sending more verbose pre-rendered HTML fragments over the wire can make sense as a way of giving users a better experience.

> The allure of xmlhttprequest was that over connections much slower than today

As someone who implemented a SPA framework prior to "SPA" being a word much less React or Angular, I have to say for my company, it was all about state management.

Distinguishing between web apps (true applications in the browser), and web pages (NYT, SEO, generally static content), state management was very hellish at the time (~2009).

Before that, pages were entirely server rendered, and JavaScript was so terrible thanks to IE and a single error message (null is null or not an object) that it was deemed insanity to use it for anything more than form validation.

However, with the advent of V8, it became apparent as an ASP.NET developer that a bad language executing at JIT speeds on the browser was "good enough" to not send state back and forth through a very complex mesh of cookies, querystring parameters, server-side sessions, and form submissions.

If state could be kept in one place, that more than justified shifting all the logic to the client for complex apps.

> If state could be kept in one place, that more than justified shifting all the logic to the client for complex apps.

Reminds me of saving Rich Text content on the server side. It was nightmare.

Also reminds me of the Microsoft RTF format. It's basically a memory dump of the GUI editor.

The state binded on a tree was never a good idea to start with.

I don't know about you, but "cookies, querystring parameters, server-side sessions, and form submissions" to me are an order of magnitude simpler, though dated and not very flexible, than any modern JS client-side state and persistency layer.

See: mobx

Form submissions are brutally bad the moment a back button comes in. I remember so many "The client used the back button in a multi-page form and part of the form disappeared for them" bugs.

They're not if coded correctly and using the correct redirect/HTTP response code.

Yes. You redirect after POST.

Yeah. I remember dozens of edge cases that involved errors and back buttons and flash scope and on at least one occasion, jquery plugins.

Or back buttons and CSRF tokens and flash scope...

Or, let's talk about a common use case. Someone starts filling in a form, and then they need to look at another page to get more information. (This other page may take too long to load and isn't worth putting in the workflow, or it was cut from scope to place the information twice.) So, they go out to another page, then back, and are flustered because they were part way through the work.

So, if you want this to work, you're going to need state management in the client anyway. (Usually using SessionStorage these days, I'd presume?) So, then, we've already done part of the work for state management. You are then playing the "which is right, the server or the client" game.

You accumulate enough edge cases and UX tweaks, and you're half way down the SPA requirements anyway.

Now, hopefully Hotwire will solve a large number of these problems. I'm going to play with it, but the SPA approaches have solved so many of the edge cases via code and patterns.

> but the SPA approaches have solved so many of the edge cases via code and patterns.

Part of the problem has also been ameliorated by larger screens and browser tabs.

I don't think app complexity and sophistication grew that much. Most of the problems common apps are solving can be dealt with standard CRUD-like interfaces and old boring tech and it works just fine.

I think what drives this crazy train of overengineered solutions of SPAs and K8s for hosting single static page is deep separation of engineeres from the actual business problems and people they are trying to help. When all you have are tickets in Jira or Trello you don't know why you should do or if they actually benefit someone then it's natural to invent non-existant tech problems which are suddenly interesting to solve. That is natural for curious engineers and builders. Then mix in 1% of big apps and companies which actually do have these tech problems and have to solve them and everybody just wants to be like them and start cargo culting.

Agree. The transformation of software into ever-smaller and more specialised 'ticketing' is as much a result of managerialism encroaching in. Basecamp have this bit in their Shape Up handbook about responsibility and how it affects their approach to software:

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Making teams responsible

Third, we give full responsibility to a small integrated team of designers and programmers. They define their own tasks, make adjustments to the scope, and work together to build vertical slices of the product one at a time. This is completely different from other methodologies, where managers chop up the work and programmers act like ticket-takers.

Together, these concepts form a virtuous circle. When teams are more autonomous, senior people can spend less time managing them. With less time spent on management, senior people can shape up better projects. When projects are better shaped, teams have clearer boundaries and so can work more autonomously.

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You've just explained the adoption of microservices in the enterprise.

I wonder if other industries suffer from the same problem, bored engineers.

Curious what you make of this:

I recently wrote a SPA (in React) that, in my opinion, would have been better suited as a server-side rendered site with a little vanilla js sprinkled on top. In terms of both performance and development effort.

The reason? The other part of the product is an app, which is written in React Native, so this kept a similar tech stack. The server component is node, for the same reason. And the app is React Native in order to be cross-platform. We have ended up sharing very little code between the two, but using the same tech everywhere has been nice, in a small org where everyone does everything.

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