Ask HN: At what point does being a loyal early hire become a poor choice?

Loyalty is a wonderful thing. You should demonstrate your loyalty by giving your company a full two weeks notice when you leave.

You're being taken advantage of, and you know it or you wouldn't have posted this. You're taking an under-market salary and no benefits, which means you're probably making about 50% of what you should be when you count health care, 401k and so forth. You have no equity, which is the traditional tradeoff at a startup: Accept a reduced salary for the possibility of a large payoff at the end.

Right now, your best case scenario is that the company is wildly successful, the founders go on to fame and fortune, and if you're very, very lucky, they might just decide to throw you a bone. Which they won't.

Leave.

One odd note: "equity ... promised to me 'as soon as we are profitable'". Early employees are typically given large amounts of equity in lieu of a market salary and benefits --- because the company hasn't got the money to pay market rates yet. There's ordinarily no need to wait for profitability, or even for funds to be available (beyond what's required to pay for the legal paperwork). And even without fully worked up contracts, it's still possible to at least have a written arrangement of how equity will be divided and up as and when things are formalized.

So, if you're getting below-market rates and no equity, well... at the very least, that's unusual. If you can't get straight answers about why it's unusual, that could just be a sign of general cluelessness --- but management being that clueless doesn't bode well for the future of the business.

You only owe your employer your loyalty insofar as they're fulfilling their end of the bargain.

If what you've said is true, they're not.

There is no startup out there who gives zero equity for any developer, let alone a lead developer. Salary varies widely depending on company stage and location.

I'd be careful comparing the salary at an early stage startup to the median salary at a place like Google or Facebook -- you get more cash when equity is expensive for a startup, and vice versa -- but even at those companies you'd get some equity.

Quit now, or if you don't have the cash, as soon as you find a job. There is no point in negotiating -- the kind of company that takes advantage of you when you're ignorant isn't the kind of company you want to work for even after you're fully-informed and can renegotiate a better deal.

Feel free to email me at jesse@everlane.com. No need to de-anonymize yourself, but if you give me some details I'll be happy to help you decide what companies to be looking at.

> the kind of company that takes advantage of you when you're ignorant isn't the kind of company you want to work for even after you're fully-informed and can renegotiate a better deal.

This is the important bit. Don't waste loyalty on someone who isn't loyal back. There's literally nothing in it for you; it will only bring you pain, frustration and health problems.

Sure, I have no problem working for an illoyal employer, and most of us do. I'll do the most skilled work I can, with a professional attitude, as long as I get my negotiated pay. But, they can not expect any loyalty if things go bad.

If my employer refuses to compensate when people run off from the family dinner to help out during emergencies, that is acceptable. The contract only says they are required to pay for my 8 hours per day. But, then they should not expect me to answer the phone outside working hours; I don't care if there's a crisis at Important Customer's site. The contract only says I have to work for 8 hours per day.

If my employer has a tendency to lay off people to meet arbitrary profit goals, that is also acceptable. It's business - they're here to make money. But, I will also not hesitate to jump ship to take better paid jobs when given the opportunity. I don't care if I'm the only person left who knows Technology Foo. It's business - I have kids to feed and loans to pay.

You should not be spiteful, you should just refuse to be exploited. Life's too short to spend in abusive relationships.

It sounds like you're a remote contractor with precisely one client, where relations are not that great. No problem, us contractors have a really easy solution for that one. It's a seller's market for talent right now.

P.S. Next time, leave the title, take the money.

Low salary and benefits may be acceptable at an early stage, but there is absolutely no reason you shouldn't get any equity at this point. Personally, I say hope for the best but prepare for the worst. Start looking for a new job before you need one. It'll be much better than living on unemployment.

Fundamentally, you first need to ask yourself a few questions

* Do you have faith in the ability of the CEO and CTO to execute on all the things you don't have visibility into?

* What is your best alternative to this job? I'd put your resume out there and see what bites you get.

* What is preventing you from bringing these issues up with the management directly, vs. posting on HN?

Not having equity NOW is a big red flag, as are the communication issues with the team. Substandard salary and health care is forgivable in certain stages of a company, but only if you have substantial equity.

I think based on your answers to the above, you'll know what you want to do. If you do decide to stay, you should make it a positive negotiation with your management about wanting more visibility into the business side (so you can contribute more), and to get at least the equity part resolved now.

IMO with no other data, if you live in the Bay Area or are willing to relocate, your best bet is probably to find a new job with a winning team. Assuming this was an early career move for you (full stack involvement with a company which may or may not be doomed), it's probably worth taking a role in a well-run engineering organization and business for a while to see how THAT works (Palantir, Facebook, Google, Twitter, Quora, ... even pockets at Microsoft, Yahoo, etc.), and maybe then try to get a cofounder or full early tech hire (with equity, etc.) at a funded startup. You should be able to save quite a bit of money while working for one of the larger companies, enough to give you more flexibility with later jobs. You might also decide that you'd rather do your own startup, in which case you could consider something like Y Combinator.

They've slipped for a year? GTFO. You're getting robbed as a tech lead and you now have a ton of professional experience where before you got interviews that went nowhere.

Just start shopping yourself around and find something else. You don't need to make a big deal about it. You have no basis for loyalty except inertia. If you don't know what the business is like and they've slipped for a year, they don't have business. They would be bragging left and right if there was anything coming in.

The only thing "early stage" about it is that they haven't launched, and really, from what you describe, there is no launch forthcoming. Interview on your lunch hour or in the early evening (people hiring know how it is) and change boats like a good businessperson. If your absence would be so catastrophic, then that's additional evidence they don't even prioritize the business's interests.

First, your job is 'CEO/Founder' of 'ME Inc' manage and watch your career accordingly. Things you will need to do to advance your career, happiness, and earnings are often not in alignment with what your employer needs. They are not your Mom, and are only thinking of you as a resource or factor of production. Some employers are very thoughtful and truly do watch out for their employees. Many do not. Its not hard to tell the difference between the two groups as the way they do some things is the way they do everything. Things like no equity, no benefits, empty promises, no business exposure do not bode well.

Second, you get what you negotiate. Over time you will learn that you have more control over your 'rate' than you realize (pay, equity, etc), it's based on what you accept, not what you are offered. Also at the early part of your career you need to balance experience and exposure to things you enjoy vs maximizing compensation. Trade cash compensation for exposure, mentoring, and of course equity.

Lastly don't worry about business continuity if you leave, that's not your job, it's the CEO's/CTO's. As long as you are ethical, don't destroy anything, and give two weeks, you are following accepted practices. If tasks take longer than two weeks to transition (not your problem), as your discretion you can make yourself available after two weeks - maybe after hours or on-demand consulting at 3x your current hourly rate:-) They may also make an offer you 'can't refuse' at which point you may be able to negotiate to stay at the pay rate you think is appropriate, and with equity.

I am in almost the same exact situation as you. Hopefully my experience can help you a bit.

I am the lead/senior web developer at my company (a very small startup thats been around a couple of years). I am paid ridiculously little for the kind of work I do with NO benefits. I didn't realize this at first because I was so naive fresh out of college, and I didn't know that the normal entry level salary for my position was much higher. I do have a good relationship with my boss, and I've managed to talk him into nudging up my pay a little bit. However its become very clear that it will take forever (and maybe never) to finally get closer to what I deserve, not to mention standard benefits. And check this out, after over a year of working there, I'm still a contractor! (AKA, more taxes for me because he isn't willing to pay his share by putting me on payroll)

Your main question is about loyalty. Well, I feel the same as you. My company is so dependent on me that it really would hurt it badly if I left. And to make matters worse, I actually LOVE the work that I do. One side of me feels awful- like adopting an animal from a shelter and taking it back because I can't afford it. The other side wants proper compensation, gosh darn-it.

I did recently make the decision to leave, however, and it took me months to accept that I needed to. (I am currently having interviews for new jobs right now). I talked to my boss to let him know that I am leaving (and why), and I can tell he is pretty upset because he put all of his eggs in one basket with me and is going to have a really tough time replacing me. However, since we have a good relationship, he will work with me to have a good transition out of the company (and give me good reviews!).

I would suggest, like everyone else here has already, that you send out your resume immediately (after making sure to update it, of course). Because you do have a job and won't have to worry about money, you can really take the time to make yourself look awesome and land a great job. Look at it this way: you may feel bad about leaving because they are so dependent on you, but hopefully this experience will make them realize that they need to value and take care of their employees more.

If he is going to have such a tough time replacing you, he should pay you more and/or give you significant equity.

It doesn't make sense that he should take advantage of you for over a year, and then act all upset when you finally get a clue and quit.

I seriously /boggle at employers like this.

If you are working only for this employer, and you go into their office to work, and have set hours, etc. you are an employee in the eyes of the IRS. Your boss will get in trouble with this sooner or later.

Ditto on the 'ask'. If you don't ask them for benefits, equity, etc., you won't receive. Sit down with them and have a talk, or, better yet, simply sit down with them. Sounds like it's ripe time to hold a big ol' weekend of collaboration & BBQ somewhere warm that everyone can meet, greet and socialize a bit.

Getting to know the folks better face to face might make this an easier longterm decision. Once you know them better you may also get more solid ideas on how to approach them re: benefits / equity & such. "Waiting until we're profitable" is merely bullshit, just note :)

There has been talk of such a meeting for quite a while and I think the founders realize the need for this. However, like most things at this company, its actual realization is long in the indefinite future.

Move it into the immediate future.

Equity is something you want, and the founders aren't going to give it to you unless you make it clear that this is important.

I don't know what your relationship is with the founders, so your lack of equity could be simply due to inexperience at the time you were hired. That's not to say you aren't being taken advantage of, but it's easier to negotiate if you don't start from an adversarial position.

> "Waiting until we're profitable" is merely bullshit, just note :)

This is true. There is a non-bullshit way of telling someone they'll get their reward 'as soon as we are profitable'; it's called equity. But if they aren't giving the OP equity, it's bullshit.

I have no idea who our clients are, what our funding is like, what our income is like or what our business goals are (aside from vague descriptions).

have you asked or tried to talk about the business with the CTO and CEO? Perhaps make it known that you're interested in that stuff so you can make better judgments on your tasks.

This sounds very much the type of company/guys that I worked for a period of time. I wouldn't be surprised if they were actually the same people. I regret the time deeply.

In the end I didn't even get paid as the company got bankrupt. Of course it didn't come as a surprise to them, and they could have paid me earlier, but they decided to spend the money on their company instead. So, they were dishonest too.

Leave and work for some who know what they are doing.

When you can't see the door out.

At that point isn't it already the case that you should have already left? I mean, having no other options is exactly the sort of situation I want to avoid.

Stick with it until you find another job, especially now that you can leverage the experience and everything you've learned. A paycheck is better than none at all so I'd wait to find a replacement before you quit, also it's usually easier to find a job when you're already employed.

Looking for a job though already feels like being disloyal. Given how early we are and how much domain knowledge I have of our system and operations, I worry that my leaving the company could be catastrophic for them. On the other hand, do I even want to be with a company (as a non-founder) who's entire existence is dependent on a single employee? If so, then, I feel I should be compensated accordingly.

|Looking for a job though already feels like being disloyal.

Not to be offensive, but you're brainwashed. You should be thinking about yourself. Why are you sacrificing your career, happiness, quality of life, and opportunities to a company that sounds like they're using/abusing you--low pay, no equity, bad work environment.

If they're so dependent on you, then you should be compensated accordingly. Your value to the company and your pay are directly related.

they likely won't feel the slightest bit disloyal to you when the funding runs low/out. If they've hired other people on after you at a higher rate and haven't adjusted your salary, they're already being 'disloyal'. If they can afford multiple other developers, they can get you up to the median salary level.

I'm too cynical about this - get your issues on the table, and either get something (more money, bonus/profit-sharing, equity) or get out.

I'm a serial startup founder, and I've been in the position that your CTO and CEO are in right now. It's hard and expensive to get a company off the ground and if you can find someone who will work for you, who's good, and they'll do it for less than they're worth, then awesome. My feeling is that if I'm paying someone 25% less than they're worth, then that makes it easier for me to give them a nice raise once we're "on our feet" financially. But that's a moving target, and it's always tempting to just let things ride. And if someone doesn't ask for equity, maybe I'll just let that ride too, because who wants to give up equity if they don't have to.

I think these guys are making a mistake, though, because they're not just letting you get by making a little less that what you could make on the open market, and they're not just giving you a small amount of equity when you could perhaps demand more. They're playing with fire, because there's a good chance you could go out and find a good job, and by the time they find out you're dissatisfied, it's too late.

But here's what I'm certain of: If, as other commenters have recommended, you have a meetup with them, and you let them know that you feel you're not being adequately compensated, and you've been thinking of starting a job hunt, but that your sense of loyalty dictates that you let them know now, before to get fed up and before you find another job, they'll give you a sweeter deal.

They may not be able to afford to pay you more cash, but they can definitely afford to give you a decent equity stake. I can't say how much would be okay, but 0% is definitely not okay. In this case, you need to turn the tables. Once you've agreed to work for equity in lieu of a full-market salary, you become an investor, and they need to pitch you on the company's future. As for deciding what's appropriate, I'd recommend not thinking in terms of a percent, but have them make the case for the company being worth X amount. If they've raised money from other investors, then that may already be determined. Then you can agree on an amount of equity that's equal to a certain amount of the company's value. If you think you've missed out on $50,000 of compensation so far, then you should ask for that much equity, plus whatever extra you think you should get for the work you'll do in the near future.

Then as the company's fortunes rise, then so will yours. Of course, if you're going to take equity at all, you need to have them make the case, and you need to believe it. Otherwise, keep working at this job long enough to get a new one, and let the chips fall where they may.

David Adams, you're exactly the type of boss to avoid. If you're paying me less than you know I'm worth and hiring other people who contribute less and are less important, but are being compensated more--then that means you disrespect me as an employee and an individual and are taking advantage of me, knowingly, which makes it far worse.

"et them know that you feel you're not being adequately compensated, and you've been thinking of starting a job hunt, but that your sense of loyalty dictates that you let them know now"

I absolutely would not do this. Wait until you have other offers, if you play your cards now they could withhold giving you a reference or not as good of one as you truly deserve since they know it will be to their detriment.

Do what is best for yourself, not some startup which has clearly illustrated, by the facts presented, that it does not value you as an employee. Someone else will, go find them--you owe it to yourself.

As jfarmer said above: the kind of company that takes advantage of you when you're ignorant isn't the kind of company you want to work for even after you're fully-informed and can renegotiate a better deal.

You're taking his post a little too personally, business is business.

In the end if you're not fighting your own corner compensation wise why do you expect your boss to do so?

His incentive is to keep you happy enough to stay and be productive while spending as little money as possible.

If the OP is genuinely happy with the job itself there's no downside to simply voicing his actual dissatisfaction as long as he presents his employers, especially as he's presenting a clear solution to the problem.

In your solution he's got to spend a bunch of his spare time applying for jobs first, which could all be a waste of time.

Also your point about references makes no sense. If they're petty enough to be asses now, they'll be petty enough to be asses in the future.

Business is business, but is it good business?

If the OP is genuinely happy with the job itself

If your tech lead is using the word "stupid" to describe their loyalty, I'd say it's bad business. Note that the OP is not wondering whether they're underpaid or under-equitized, or any other in-kind value judgement, they're already past that. It's now a matter of pulling a simple switch and bailing into a seller's market. Competent C-levels avoid this situation, especially in a startup environment where the midstream boatchanging of technical leadership can have painful consequences.

It's irresponsible for a company leader to exploit a crucial employee who can learn the truth about their situation, not that letting the launch slip by a year doesn't already mark them as possibly-incompetent. I can't recall if it's Fred Brooks or something possibly-apocryphal, but the rule of thumb that I've heard is that schedules slip by the units the milestone is measured. If the deadline is "two months from now," the schedule will slip by two-month periods. Slipping by a year? The business may not even get off the ground. I realize that it may have slipped by a year in two month increments (e.g.), but in hindsight the company's momentum sure doesn't look healthy.

In your solution he's got to spend a bunch of his spare time applying for jobs first, which could all be a waste of time

Pure FUD.

If they're petty enough to be asses now, they'll be petty enough to be asses in the future.

True that.

The thing is many programmers are introverts and many are not happy to negotiate rates and benefits. If they feel things are not fair, they search for another opportunity (as the topic starter). If you want to have them around - that's your headache from now on. Motivate.

You know what people whose leaving a company would be catastrophic are called? Owners

No equity. Are you fucking kidding? Why exactly are you taking substandard comp then?

Stop being a sucker. Personally, I'd tell the owners 10% or two weeks, their choice. Be willing to be negotiated down to maybe 3%. If they can't do that, then they can find a new lead dev.

And get some health insurance. I just broke my ankle (well, not really -- I popped my foot out of the ankle socket, severed 2 ligaments, tore a 3rd ligament, broke two bones, have $1k of titanium holding stuff together while it heals). The bill is $50K and counting with tons of physical therapy and another surgery to come. I'd seriously question any employer that can't at least buy minimal coverage for employees. Sometimes shit happens out of the blue -- I at least did this snowboarding, but my brother did something similar slipping in a parking lot -- and you'll have a medical problem that requires spending a lot of money. Make sure this doesn't ruin you, either financially, or physically by not getting the care you need when you need it.

edit: start here http://yclist.com/ I bet a ton of those companies need a full stack web dev.

Seconded on health insurance -- getting some kind of HSA compatible high deductible plan SHOULD be fairly inexpensive (I'm 32, in good health, and $5k deductible coverage is $81/mo). That covers the insurance-against-huge-risk aspect of health care; you can still pay for smaller expenses out of cash.

Having an employee go bankrupt (or worse, not have health care) after a surprise illness or injury is a major risk to a team; it seems prudent for management or investors to want to mitigate this risk.

Where are you located!? $5k HSA deductible here is $280(!) - I'm a bit older than you, but not that much older (and married, but no kids). Blue Cross NC.

This is a Washington State plan. It's for an unmarried 32yo male. It's actually $91. Regence Blue Cross Blue Shield, $3500 deductible, $5000 out of pocket maximum.

As another data point, I'm paying ~$140/month for a $2.5k-deductible, HSA-enabled plan at 38, in UT.

Totally agree with earl.

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