Hacker News Reader

Comment by ebg13 | Hacker News Reader

This seems like a fun, slightly expensive craft project but not a serious bicycle. Or maybe the problem is that it's a little _too_ serious of a bicycle.

$400 for just some tubes, glue, and dropouts, plus another $800-$2500 for the other parts needed to turn the frame into an actual bicycle, plus however much you value several days of labor, and then from their FAQ...

> How long will a bamboo bike frame last? It’s difficult to say. If you care for your bike as you would for a musical instrument...

Care for your bike like a musical instrument?! They can't be serious. That instrument had better be a steel triangle.

> Are Bamboo Bicycles strong enough? Absolutely! Over the hundreds of bamboo bikes built, they have travelled thousands of miles

Is that 10 miles each? That's not very reassuring.

> If you crash, won’t you get splinters? Likely, yes

Oh fun.

View on HN

I don't know how well the bamboo frame performs, but I'm not sure your critiques really demonstrate that it's "not a serious bicycle".

> $400 for just some tubes, glue, and dropouts, plus another $800-$2500 for the other parts needed to turn the frame into an actual bicycle, plus however much you value several days of labor

$400 is extremely cheap for a bike frame, not to mention a custom one. And the "labor" is a selling point -- this a niche product is for customers who _want_ to build their own frame. The DIY assembly isn't a cost-saving measure like with furniture.

The $800-$2500 is just a catch-all range for the rest of the components. It's doesn't have anything to do with their specific frame.

> Care for your bike like a musical instrument?! They can't be serious. That instrument had better be a steel triangle.

I'm not sure what your issue is with their statement. Regular maintenance is important, and will extend the life of the components. That's true for all bikes. People that spend time & money on a quality bike are willing to maintain them.

> Is that 10 miles each? That's not very reassuring.

I agree with you that their statement doesn't give any indication of the durability of the frame. They should have quoted some kind of actual statistics, either real world or from factory testing.

> $400 is extremely cheap for a bike frame,

It's on the low end, but certainly not "extreme". A nice steel frame like Surly or Soma is $500-600. "Extremely cheap" would be something like Huffy that is under $200 for the complete bike.

> I'm not sure what your issue is with their statement. Regular maintenance is important, and will extend the life of the components. That's true for all bikes. People that spend time & money on a quality bike are willing to maintain them.

I keep my musical instruments in padded hard cases, in climate-controlled rooms away from direct sunlight. That kind of treatment is not remotely practical for a bicycle if you're actually using it as a means of transport.

That doesn’t seem that extreme or strange to me. If you fly with a bike then you’ll want a hard, padded case for it, like one of these[1].

I also keep my best bike (I, er, have several) in the house. i.e. a temperature controlled room.

1. https://www.bikeboxalan.com

> If you fly with a bike then you’ll want a hard, padded case for it, like one of these[1].

Sure, but flying is very much an occasional thing; you have to semi-disassemble a bike to put it in a case like that, and generally reckon on having to do a shakedown ride after you've unpacked it (at least I do). Putting it in a box every time would not be practical.

> I also keep my best bike (I, er, have several) in the house. i.e. a temperature controlled room.

That's not unknown but not exactly normal; you must admit having several bikes is pretty extreme in itself. If you're not on the ground floor then knocking the bike against a wall or doorframe on the way in or out is almost inevitable, whereas I certainly wouldn't want to do the same to a musical instrument. I suspect the majority of people who are using a bike as day-to-day transport would keep that bike in, at best, an unheated garage.

The bike I use for commuting is a Brompton. Folding it up to put in its padded bag takes less than 30 seconds and I do that every time I put it away in my hall. I don't own a flight case for it but they exist and don't require disassembly to use.

I'm not saying that everyone does this, just that treating a bike like a musical instrument isn't that far fetched an idea.

> you must admit having several bikes is pretty extreme in itself.

I'm in a bike club. I know so many people with more than one bike it's not even a joke any more. N+1 and all that.

> Folding it up to put in its padded bag takes less than 30 seconds and I do that every time I put it away in my hall.

But you leave it unboxed for 8 hours at the other end, right? I don't think any musician would do that with their instrument.

> I don't own a flight case for it but they exist and don't require disassembly to use.

Sure, because it's a dedicated folding bike. Will this bamboo bike go in a flight case without any disassembly?

> Will this bamboo bike go in a flight case without any disassembly?

Yeah if you want that. BikeBoxAlan have a case you put a bike into and only need to remove the wheels[1].

If you'd discount that because of such minor disassembly you'd have to discount the minor disassembly of putting a flute or Sax in it's box too.

As I said though, you don't have to treat the bike like that but you could easily if you wanted to.

1. https://www.bikeboxalan.com/product/triathlon-easyfit/?v=79c...

And you'd what, stash a second box at the office? Always have a support car? Only do circular rides from home?

I'm sure there are some people whose lifestyle lets them treat a bicycle like a musical instrument. I really don't think most people could do it, not while riding with any real frequency. I count myself lucky that my office has underground bicycle parking (and we're still talking wheel-bender racks next to the A/C exhaust vents). I stand by the statement that a bicycle that needs to be looked after that carefully isn't, by the usual standards of such things, a practical bicycle.

Of course I don't keep a second box at the office. Likewise I know very few people that keep a piano in a flight case when they're not transporting it.

I actually do have bikes that I only take on circular rides because of their value and I baby the hell out of them but that's a false dichotomy.

They are not saying you have to treat these bikes as fragile musical instruments. They're just saying that if you do it will incur less wear and tear.

A carbon fibre bike frame is probably more fragile than a steel one. That limits the number of use cases for carbon but doesn't mean it's not a practical material for different usecases.

As a further example, I have a TT race bike. I keep mine hanging up in the garage an only take it out to races or for circular training rides.

I have a friend that commutes on his TT bike as a form of training. Mine will last longer than his.

> That instrument had better be a steel triangle.

Played percussion in high school band. I have a feeling taking care of a triangle is much more intense than you think it is.

You're probably right. I don't know what would be a sane instrument to compare to bicycle care though. Is it possible to play music with a giant rock? It's weird seeing this kind of language about a classic utilitarian device that has stood the test of time exactly because it requires very little care or maintenance.

> Is it possible to play music with a giant rock?

Yes it is, I'll see if I can find a video.

More related to what you're looking for though, I could see an improvised percussion instrument such as this group [0] play would probably fit the bill.

https://invidious.xyz/watch?v=tZ7aYQtIldg

> It's weird seeing this kind of language about a classic utilitarian device that has stood the test of time exactly because it requires very little care or maintenance.

Definitely agree about that.

> This seems like a fun, slightly expensive craft project but not a serious bicycle.

Bamboo bikes can be extremely serious bikes.

Calfree (perhaps the best know custom carbon fibre bike manufacture) also builds a bamboo frame[0]

There's no reason why this shouldn't be roughly comparable, if somewhat heavier. The tubes (mostly) just transmit forces to the joints, which are carbon wrapped.

> $400 for just some tubes, glue, and dropouts,

By comparison, the Calfree bamboo frameset is $2795[1].

[0] https://calfeedesign.com/bamboo/

[1] https://calfeedesign.com/calfee-single-frameset-order-form/

I wasn't quite sure if you meant Calfee till I saw your links.

I'm glad you put them in there... I've seen bamboo bikes around SB and Scruz for about 25 years. So I'm not surprised Calfee decided to do one.

I do think it's worth pointing out that the Calfee is built by experienced carbon-fiber layup specialists who do this everyday... they use titanium components and almost certainly impregnate the bamboo to offer the 10yr warranty. And total weight 6-7lbs (frame only) is pretty damn light! So 3k for a reliable one of a kind competition bike vs 0.5k for a kit you build yourself and ride carefully for less than a year. You better enjoy building it.

Any other recommendations for a DIY bicycle frame?

It begs the question why.

This may lead to a huge side debate, but for a lot of mechanics, the frame is actually the boring part of a bicycle build. Sure it's the centerpiece. Sure does it plane? But there's already a plethora of other issues one needs to address when assembling a bike that building your own frame seems like a misprioritisation of time for novices.

For example: will all the components of the drivetrain you pieced together actually shift well? Are the cranks going to clear the chainstays? Is the headset too tight? Do the brakes bite at the right moment when one pulls the lever? Why do the brakes squeal? Are the wheels properly tensioned and trued?

These details may not matter the first 30 minutes of riding a new bike. But 3 months from now, whether a bike has issues or not depends on attention to these details.

Most local bike co-ops have enough 80s Japanese frames that are still compatible with easily accessible parts that I don't see a strong proposition for building a bamboo frame other than a design gimmick. Steel frames are generally lighter, won't fail catastrophically, and are arguably more elegant.

But to answer your question, if you'd like to build a bicycle frame, I'd look into a class from any of the following:

UBI in Oregon - https://bikeschool.com/

Doug Fattic in Michigan (he has a three-week course) - http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Fattic-Doug.htm

One of Doug's students has written a lengthy piece about his experience - https://medium.com/@ben.hudson/framebuilding-with-doug-fatti...

Yamaguchi in Colorado - https://www.yamaguchibike.com/content/School

> Steel frames are generally lighter

I’d rather see numbers on that. My cheapo MTB is sure as hell not light. Depending on how much I have to pay for the materials, bamboo one might be lighter and provide higher quality of ride at the same price point (not counting work).

More expensive steel frames use butted tubes and higher grade steels.

If I need to pay $1000 for such a bike, I’d say it’s a very generous interpretation of “generally lighter”. As in, 90% of bicycles I encounter on the street on a given day are probably not that.

My apologies for taking your comment seriously.

Just realized where I remember you username from. You gave me a ton of food for thought in a bicycle maintenance thread not that long ago[0]. Thanks, being a newbie up until then I didn’t even know which terms to search for!

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24403524

As I recall you were obnoxious in pretty much the same way then too.

Really? Sorry if I came across that way!

There are lots of options out there for classes to build a steel bike. I looked into it at one point and heard good things about these guys:

http://waltworks.com/framebuilding-school/

http://www.classicrendezvous.com/USA/Fattic-Doug.htm

It looks like there are plenty of others depending on where you are located:

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bicycle+frame+building+course&t=fp...

I've built up all but one of my bikes from parts, but have never attempted to build a frame. I look for 80s steel frames in decent condition and the right size.

My impression is that frame building is a highly intensive hobby and a labor of love. The frames become practically heirlooms. Some of the bikes are just stunning. There's a fair amount of specialized equipment involved, and brazing / welding are arts unto themselves.

Perhaps (just my guess) a bamboo bike is less intensive since it's basically glued together, to over-simplify. This might make it a much more accessible project.

One of the best places to save money on a bike is to learn to do your own maintenance.

A used frame that is mechanically compatible with new (or at least newer) components, and do most of the assembly yourself, at least for the things that only require specialty wrenches instead of something more complex, like a press. If you can strip an older, better bike to the frame, you can clean it up, patch the chips, and put it back together shiny.

If you can't do all of that, then the assembly costs could be higher than a reasonable frame.

The book "Bike, Scooter, and Chopper Projects for the Evil Genius" by Brad Graham is a pretty fun read around projects for and with bike frames. Loads of pictures too, if you're just interested in the sort of things you could do.

Edit: Fished the book out for the ISBN, 978-0071545266.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com