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The change does not apply to ambulances (except for air ambulances), ensuring the United States remains one of the few places in the world where a seriously ill person needs to debate if they're willing to risk their health and life to avoid a financially crippling trip to the hospital.

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Ambulance companies are flat-out extortionists and they should be charged as such. We've received bills that say in large print "Your insurance will not cover this", then when I call my provider says "Of course we cover it, send us the bill"

While the bill is working it's way though insurance we'll get new bills, every week or so, "We have not received payment and this account will be sent to a collection agency." Call the ambulance company and they say "oh nevermind, it's marked pending".

It's a scam. They want to scare you. They want to scare you out of getting a negotiated insurance rate. They want to scare you into paying before the insurance comes though. They want you to have to call them and fight to get your money back after insurance pays

After my 2nd motorcycle accident, I refused the ambulance to the hospital to be checked out, because I was more afraid of 4 figure ambulance bills than I was of long term effects to my health

Last time I had to go to the emergency room, I was luckily enough to be in a state where I could just call an Uber.

I was billed $3000 for a twenty minute ride to the hospital after somebody hit my car. I spent the time chatting with the EMTs. No treatment .

Send them a $4000 bill for your time!

When our youngest was born the nurses (incorrectly) thought his blood sugar was low and had him transferred to a different hospital via ambulance. We were able to fight and get the $2000 bill waived on account of the fact that it was a needless trip. Unfortunately my wife spent the night alone as I was with our son.

On a somewhat related note in the span of 10 years the cost to us to deliver our kids doubled. Same hospital too.

In most of the rest of the western world, the cost of childbirth is mainly the parking fee and snacks from a vending machine while waiting.

In Sweden we stayed at the hospital a few nights with both our sons. The parking was the biggest cost and food for me (my girlfriend got the food for free but I didn't).

This was a serious discussion my wife and I had when we were deciding to have a kid. The maximum out of pocket for both of us could easily wipe out my savings.

It felt really fucked up to have this discussion in what is supposed to be a first-world country. Like we were talking about alternatives like hiring a midwife or a doula because it would be cheaper. I don't even think that would be a discussion in most second-world countries.

The whole system is outrageous.

You probably won't hit the out of pocket maximum unless there is a complication. When my wife and I had our first, I was making decent money, still the hospital wrote off the entire bill through their financial assistance program.

This can be regulated at the state and local level; current state solutions had no ability to regulate air transit fees.

However even local government is getting in on this revenue stream. The last ambulance bill I saw (for a relative) was from the city’s fire department, which is already funded by (fairly high) property taxes.

I had an ambulance ride earlier this year and got hit with a four figure bill despite having good insurance. I did some digging and found that the ambulance company has an agreement with the county granting them a monopoly on emergency ambulance service. The agreement includes a set fee schedule, but it is very aggressive such that almost all rides will cost over $2000. The company is of course out-of-network for most insurance providers and they bill people for the remaining balance after insurance pays (balance billing). I wouldn't be at all surprised if there was some form of kick-back going on between the company and the county government.

"‘As I was being eaten, I was thinking about my insurance’: Woman who lost face in bear attack on why she’s voting for Bernie Sanders"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-electio...

Peak dystopia

/r/nottheonion

How any of you snakes on here can downvote this is beyond me.

I mean, I know who you are. People who have a great job and don't really have to worry about insurance. Or maybe at a university where insurance is probably covered well. So f everyone else, right?

I am self employed so I have to worry about paying all this shit myself; 11k family deductible with 40% co-insurance for $1200.

Every time my young kids have had something that was not like a massive emergency, you know what the thought is? Oh god is this worth going to the hospital for and spending 1k? Or when I had my own person health issues, my first thoughts are always how much is this going to fucking cost?

So yeah, if you think OPs link is exaggeration.. it sure as hell is not.

I found, being self-employed for a long time, that hardly anybody inside or outside the medical establishment understands how much health insurance costs for the self-employed (and what little you actually get for it). My first thoughts re: anything health-related are always costs. The treatment one receives from medical provider when they ask about costs is really degrading, too. (Try asking what a procedure for your _child_ will cost-- you really get treated badly for that.)

I was employed for about 5 years by a small tech firm that did not have a health plan (this was pre-ACA). They did pay a salary that was commensurately higher. I was able to buy an Anthem individual plan (family coverage) and it was reasonable. It was essentially equivalent to any other employer plan I've ever had except notably it did not cover maternity but that was OK as we were not having any more kids at that point.

The absolute best plan I was ever on was an HMO in the 1990s. No out of pocket for anything as long as you were referred by your primary care provider. Our first kid was born via emergency C-section and we never saw a bill for any of it.

I have no great job and I am paying more than 50% in taxes, including health care (not an insurance, but a payroll tax) that I get almost nothing from. That great change described in the article is bringing poor services to everyone, that is the end of it - I saw it in Eastern Europe, I saw it in Western Europe, but people don't want to talk about it. I live in Eastern Europe, decades in a socialist country and decades in a capitalist one, but all with socialized healthcare and that dream of free healthcare for all is an impossible utopia, you just need to think about it to realize.

> socialized healthcare and that dream of free healthcare for all is an impossible utopia, you just need to think about it to realize

I can't understand this argument when Canada, England, France, Israel, and many other countries already have healthcare that is totally free to people at the point of service, and people rave about it. Can you explain why you still think it's utopian when it already exists?

Because of limited resources in Canada they had waiting times of several years (Google can point to multiple sources), UK or Nederlands a few months (I have friends working as doctors in these countries) or, in Eastern Europe, you need to get your own drugs from home because the hospital does not have it. With the perceived "free healthcare" the use increases a lot and the limited resources cannot scale up to infinite, so you either have a very long wait time or get the almost nothing left.

This is the situation in most of countries with this system. It is mathematically impossible to get what you dream of. In countries like USA the demand is heavily filtered by prices, so people get what they afford to, if you take the filters out you will be left with nothing very fast. I hate the system in US, but at least it gives a chance to people who can afford it; here, everybody is equally screwed. The only thing that works well here is giving birth, that is free, you can cover that by the state or federal in US too, but that's about the limit.

> I hate the system in US, but at least it gives a chance to people who can afford it;

This is the temporarily embarrassed millionaire argument.

The system absolutely sucks for you right now, but you're putting up with that, because one day, ONE GLORIOUS DAY, in the future, when you are filthy rich, you want to be able to skip all the queues.

(There are plenty of countries with socialized healthcare that has a parallel private healthcare system that allows you to pay more to receive better/faster/customized care, so that's not actually an argument.)

well it's your word against that of many other people I've seen raving about their system. how about a reliable source that says that people are unhappy with it?

If you don't want to search, try this: https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/waiting-your-turn-wa.... Or on camera here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw

And there are more.

your sources are a conservative thinktank, and noted bigot and liar Steven Crowder

https://www.healthcare-now.org/blog/new-poll-shows-canadians... - Canadians Overwhelmingly Support Public Health Care

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/public-satisfaction-nh... - 60% public satisfaction with NHS

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2071992/ - "US has highest dissatisfaction with health care" (out of 7 industrialized countries they asked: Australia, Canada, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States)

I am talking about wait times, you are talking about satisfaction; they are different things.

You have demonstrated bad faith by moving the goalposts, therefore I am leaving this conversation.

>Because of limited resources in Canada they had waiting times of several years (Google can point to multiple sources), UK or Nederlands a few months

First, EVEN if what you are saying is true (spoiler alert- it's not). There are always private options if you really want to pay for it. So your argument of "there are wait times" basically goes away, because if you really want something "like you have now", you can pay and get it.

Next, what is better.. never being able to afford an elective/non urgent surgery, or wait 4-6 weeks (or perhaps even longer) for it? The point is you will get it and not go bankrupt.

And if it's urgent, you get it right away. Anything else you have heard is bullshit or has some other context you don't realize.

I mean, do you realize how many people in this country are living with conditions that probably even being able to go to a doctor on a regular basis would massively improve their life? But they can't afford it- even with "insurance".

>I hate the system in US, but at least it gives a chance to people who can afford it;

>here, everybody is equally screwed.

How do those two statements make any sense? You literally just said it gives a chance to people who can afford it... then claim everybody is equally screwed. No they aren't. It's like anything else- the top maybe 10-20% have no issues with it because they can afford it. So fuck everyone else right? The same top 10-20% who just love that the stock market booms during a pandemic because they can just continue to print more money.

Man your attitude pisses me off.

>The only thing that works well here is giving birth, that is free, you can cover that by the state or federal in US too

The hell are you talking about? "Insurance" covers birth yeah, but it'll still generally max out most peoples deductibles so it's still thousands and thousands of dollars... and heaven forbid you have a c-section or some other complicated birth.

Also, I lived in the UK for a number of years. We had so many trips to the doctor for our birth. Cost? Fucking 0. Yeah peoples taxes are a bit higher once you make descent money, but that's the damn point! People who can afford it are paying into a system that makes everyone better off.

We should be trying to make EVERYONE AS A WHOLE better off, not only the top 10-20% which is apparently what your logic is.

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