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Comment by dcolkitt | Hacker News Reader

I believe in 100 years we'll look back in horror at our society's casual indifference to routinely waking adolescents, a group with the latest shifted circadian rhythms, wake up before dawn. Much the same way that we look back at horror with the past's casual indifference to smoking.

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I suspect the same will be true about artificial light. Our sleep cycles changed dramatically with the introduction of electric light.

A few years back I built an automated lighting system [1] for my apartment that was basically a scaled-up version of a light-based alarm clock [2]. I got the expected benefit, getting up more easily in the morning. But it turned out the bigger benefit was going to sleep at a more regular hour thanks to lights that dimmed in the evening. It turned out that previously I just wasn't a responsible lightswitch user: if the lights were on and I was doing something interesting, I'd blow my sleep schedule out. Now, though, that almost never happens. I think it's had significant mood and health benefits.

For those interested, the history podcast BackStory had a great set of stories on how time and sleep have changed in the industrial era. [3] I expect we'll be undoing a lot of that over coming decades.

[1] https://github.com/wpietri/sunrise

[2] an older version of this: https://www.amazon.com/Philips-Simulation-Headspace-Subscrip...

[3] https://www.backstoryradio.org/shows/on-the-clock-4/

I think Hue bulbs can do that out of the box.

Indeed, and after setting up the auto wake up / sleep cycle, I had to turn it off because it was leading me to want to fall asleep at night when I still had a ton of work to get through

As great as it would be to keep a more natural "lighting" cycle around the house, the truth is my modern obligations won't allow for that, so I have the lights on at full blast until midnight quite frequently

I look forward to my retirement but I wonder what brain and body damage I will have accrued until then

I think it's worth asking how much more time spent equals more productivity. For me, that's only true for very short periods. I find I'm way more productive for the long haul if I'm getting plenty of sleep.

The thing that convinced me to try was this presentation from game developers on the limits of crunch time: https://lostgarden.home.blog/2008/09/28/rules-of-productivit...

I agree wholeheartedly. Unfortunately, deadlines often have a way of making it impossible to have a full night of sleep.

They mostly can now, 6 years later. Although they still don't do two things I really like: 1) long, slow changes in light (my lights dim from 7 to 10 pm, but I think the app is limited to 1 hour), 2) color temperature shifts as part of that (my lights go from very warm at "dawn" to very cool at noon and back to very warm at "dusk".

Mine is also more opinionated; I can turn on the lights manually, but they'll go back in sync to the schedule after a bit. Whereas with the Hue app, if I change the lighting during an automatic cycle, it stops the automation until the next trigger point.

I'd say artificial light might have had the same effect internet has on us. Prior to it, we had to follow nature's cycle, then we made our own schedule. Internet allows to choose ad infinitum .. we're unregulated by the slow capped technologies of the past, the burden is on us to stop.

I spent a summer in Thailand on a small island living in a remote shack with no power. I was totally beholden to the natural light other than an oil lamp and I tiny pen torch I had. I had the best sleep I've ever had, but I'd wake super early with the sun rise and actually feel like getting up and doing stuff.

I have zero doubts about everything you said.

Anecdotally, the last time electricity went down in the whole neighborhood we were forced to use candles and it was .. magical. Stupidly magical.. the light warmth, the decay, the flicker.. my mind went into creative mode right away. It's the opposite of distraction we can get 24/7 these days.

yes, same thing here

in the early morning, having it still be dark was a wonderful feeling, and then when power was restored and all the lights came back on outside, i was quite shocked how my good feelings went away...

after that, i started to wonder what the whole effect of endless light polution is having on societey...

everything has a dosage, even modernity

only 100 years ago most would be waking up before dawn to milk the cows.

most in 1920?

I’m directionally correct.

You’re right though.

Point stands if I make it 200 years ago and more importantly for most of human history.

And in bed at sundown.

I don't think so, especially not 100 years ago. There were too many good radio programs and before that there were other people to talk to and even alone, there were the stars.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many...

I don't find a convincing argument to use people living in traditional societies in Tanzania to illuminate the sleeping cycles of people in industrialized Western societies 100 years ago for people who had to be at a factory or office by 8am.

And only a few hundred years ago jaw size supposedly started shrinking leading to increased sleep disordered breathing, at least that's what some researchers claim.

Also, hunter-gatherer societies may get less sleep than the recommended. https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2015/10/the-many... And the San and Tsimane may not have a word for insomnia because they have bigger airways?

I think jaw size is probably related to the foods we eat. (Less reason to develop a strong jaw if you aren’t eating tough stuff) At least, that’s what I read on HN some months back. It’s why our teeth need more alignment too. Not enough space.

It's also related to how long breastfeeding is continued and to whether you have allergies (or other reasons to start mouth breathing).

I think we have it backwards, the problem is going to sleep late.

The problem is not listening to our body requests. If you are tired, you should you sleep, and then avoid alarms to wake up.

I have found discipline to be better.

I think that sometimes it takes a bit more than discipline, if you are going to really do it right. Sometimes there is an underlying medical issues keeping you from quality sleep (and leading to a delayed sleep phase) and other times it might actually be that, given your genetics or what not, you just don't sleep until later.

I am a fan of "early to bed, early to rise." But for me it's got to be with a PAP machine.

It’s as if the millions of people with insomnia all cried out all at once and condemned this post.

People who seek treatment for insomnia are often told to institute some form of sleep hygiene. My immediate thought was the comment was made by someone who found the advice worked for him/her.

My immediate thought was it was someone that looks at the clock at 11:30 and goes "alright, it's time to go to bed" and goes to bed, even if they're really enjoying that video game or whatever and that they think it's that easy to sleep, afterward.

> The problem is not listening to our body requests.

I learned in my late 20's when you constantly burn the candle at both ends, your body will eventually make that decision for you and just shut down on its own.

The problem with avoiding alarms is that perpetually sleeping in will shift forward your circadian rhythm.

Some people aren't tired just because the clock says 9pm or even 12a. Some people are more awake and energetic in the evening, and less so in the AM, and other vice-versa.

The early rising == good thing is an old moralism that can't die quickly enough, since it's not fair to people who for whatever genetic reason don't have bodies that behave like that.

I thought this too then I lived in a room without shades for months. Amazing how I started to wake up earlier and earlier and get tired earlier and earlier.

People with the night owl genetics wouldn't care about sunlight.

They do. Light still has a massive regulatory effect on the circadian rhythm, whether it's shifted slightly forward or back. Before the advent of the industrial revolution and electricity in homes no one was staying up all night unless they had to work through it.

Take a night owl and move them several time zones away, they'll end up shifting forward again in a week's time.

People with night owl genetics might have a low production of sleep hormone. Or have autism which is linked with a low production of sleep hormone.

I agree, I'm a night owl myself, but I don't think it's natural or healthy. In hunter-gatherer societies the last one to go to sleep was at midnight (youngsters) and by 8 am everyone was awake.

Go out and look at the some for a couple of minutes whem it rises, it will make the body set the max() brightness to know what is low() and when to start with sleep hormones..

When you are young - your cells work better in all aspects.

Even if children / adolescents have poor sleeping, protocols for mitigating alzheimer’s would be better spent at ages middle age and up. This is when the body’s repair mechanism start failing to keep up and diseases start to progress faster.

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