If the US demanded a check from Brazil in order to halt the creation of some oil pipeline or coal mine, they would rightly be laughed out of the room--the US shouldn't contribute to worsening environmental issues because it's every country's moral responsibility to create a sustainable future.
> especially when they buy meat and soya from Brazil.
I'm a big fan of economic solutions to economically-derived environmental problems. I want as many countries as possible to have a carbon tax, and I want those countries to have a border adjustment so China or whomever can't out-compete other countries by polluting (externalizing the cost of production to the environment). Maybe the analog here is a border adjustment for Brazil and other countries that aren't managing their environment to some accepted standard, so that other Western countries aren't contributing to Brazilian deforestation (and other environmental issues).
How much economic benefit would those resources offer if consumed? In the case of forests, is the land covered by them fit for pasture or crops? Is that an apt comparison with the Amazon?
Also, how much does North America need the money they'd get out of consuming those resources?
> Similarly, Europe has many resources of its own
Is that so? How much of Europe is covered by native forests? In Brazil it's roughly 50% of the country. And that's native rain forest, not artificial reforestation.
Is Europe willing to relocate people out of territories they've occupied for generations to restore the original forests?
> most of the consumption of natural resources in these countries predated our modern understanding of environment
Yes, but the fact is Western countries are wealthy and the resources they consumed throughout their history surely played a part in the wealth they've accumulated. Why shouldn't Brazil have that chance?
To clarify, I do not think it's reasonable to cut down the forest - but it's very easy and convenient for European countries to point fingers when they've gotten rich off their own resources and other countries' resources via colonialism.
> If the US demanded a check from Brazil in order to halt the creation of some oil pipeline or coal mine, they would rightly be laughed out of the room
If the US were a poor country and the oil pipeline would represent a big economic gain for them, I honestly don't think that would be unreasonable. You can't expect poor countries to sit on their hands if it's a game changing opportunity.
> Maybe the analog here is a border adjustment for Brazil and other countries that aren't managing their environment to some accepted standard, so that other Western countries aren't contributing to Brazilian deforestation
I would fully support that. I don't think we'll see any improvements to the situation until other countries maneuver to make deforestation an economic issue.
How much economic benefit would those resources offer if consumed? In the case of forests, is the land covered by them fit for pasture or crops? Is that an apt comparison with the Amazon?
The US alone has more untapped oil than any other country on the planet, including Saudi Arabia or Russia, and those countries are largely dependent on oil for their whole economies. So I would expect that there's enough oil to finance an entire second world economy (if not first world), especially prior to the recent decline in oil prices. And that's not counting forest or oil.
As far as forests, I'm sure much of it isn't fit for crops because most of what was fit for crops was cleared hundreds of years prior to our modern understanding of environment. America should work to eliminate and reverse its own environmental damage and Brazil should do the same. To that end, America has bigger environmental opportunities than reforesting agricultural land--for example, passing a carbon tax (with border adjustments) will certainly yield more environmental benefit (at lower cost).
> Is that so? How much of Europe is covered by native forests? In Brazil it's roughly 50% of the country. And that's native rain forest, not artificial reforestation.
Doesn't matter. The original claim was that western countries exhausted their own resources, so any amount greater than zero suffices to disprove it (and thus the broader argument that depends on that claim).
> Is Europe willing to relocate people out of territories they've occupied for generations to restore the original forests?
I don't buy your underlying assumption that Brazil not knowingly deforesting the Amazon is equivalent to Europe reversing damage they did during the Iron Age. What sense does it make to fault living Europeans for decisions that Iron Age Europeans made? They're both nominally European in that they reside in Europe, but they're different populations. I grant you that extant Europeans benefit from the dearth of forests in the same way that Brazilians benefit from the forests that have already been cleared, but how do we compare these things? Why do we need both polities to have the same percentage of preserved vs cleared forests? Or does fairness demand that the economies of all polities are exactly the same (or the same per-capita)?
Fairness is inherently subjective, so we oughtn't defer environmental progress to such a time as we discover some objective notion of fairness (or even one that we all agree upon); rather, each country should work to improve its own environmental trajectory and not make excuses based on other countries.
> If the US were a poor country and the oil pipeline would represent a big economic gain for them, I honestly don't think that would be unreasonable. You can't expect poor countries to sit on their hands if it's a game changing opportunity.
According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_the_United_Sta...), there's something like $20 trillion in oil (at its peak price in 2008, there was about $20 trillion in undiscovered oil reserves alone). There's no dearth of poverty in the United States.
1: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1007454/cumulative-co2-e...
More important are our current post-modernization emissions.
United States 17.5
Australia 16.75
Canada 14.67
Russian Fed. 12.18
South Korea 11.78
Norway 11.71
Finland 11.53
Greenland 11.07
Netherlands 10.96
...
China 6.18
Mexico 3.91
*Brazil* 2.15
India 1.64
There's a nice viz here:https://ourworldindata.org/per-capita-co2#:~:text=More%20pop...
This article however was kind of interesting https://www.ft.com/content/e1c7d5e7-61da-4c20-a99b-b89826e59... including the video "How to price the Nature"
I think that list is meant to show that a lot of the rich industrialized countries emit much more per capita than developing countries, and even China (which is usually heavily criticized for high emissions).
Would you prefer to normalize the data in the only other way that makes sense - per country? Give each country 1/193th of the world's carbon budget? The West would still not be looking pretty under that plan.
Or would you prefer that we also account historic emissions? That only seems fair to me (and would put us on track for decades of negative emissions, starting tomorrow, to pay back what we borrowed from the future.)
I believe Farc did more to protect the Amazon.
Of course, they need the forest to hide themselves and they illegal activities like kidnapping and cocaine production.
The past administrations were happy about fighting illegal deforestation. In this case they still could leverage foreign aid using the argument you mentioned, yeah. But the current one is removing as many regulations as they can get away with so those farmers can go nuts, and they don't seem like they want to negotiate.
In theory, yes. In practice, not so much.
No way. You are trying to recreate the history. The last administrations were the worse in term of numbers.
Look the Table on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deforestation_of_the_Amazon_ra..., "Anual Forest Loss".. look around 1999 and 2008.
Here some articles describing the scenarios back in the days:
It would still be under Brazilian jurisdiction and law, of course, and the Brazilian govt would likely be contracted to run such a preserve. But the property rights would be owned by an international group of govts who do not allow destruction of the forests on their property.