Lonely people's brains are different due to excess of imaginary social contact

for me there is definitely a "grass is greener" effect with friends. I seem to go through an endless cycle of having either too many or too few. I prefer to spend most of my day-to-day alone, but I feel very lonely when I don't have enough local friends to reliably find a social event on friday/saturday nights. on the flip side, having too many friends quickly becomes stressful. I don't know how to gracefully handle the situation where I get invited to do more things in a week than I have the social energy for. sometimes it gets to the point where just replying to all the invitations saps most of my social "budget" for that week. I end up doing a lot of stuff that I don't really want to do just to avoid declining someone's invitations over and over. eventually, I semi-intentionally let friendships fizzle out and forgo forging new ones (since I am still in the "excess" mindset). then I am back to square one and the cycle restarts.

I think there is a sort of critical mass effect with friends. when I only have one or two, I have to try really hard to make a third. once I hit a certain number of friends with overlapping circles of their own, it's easy to make new friends whenever I want. but then it starts snowballing fast and suddenly I find myself in a deluge of messages and invitations that I don't want. I'd love to be able to hover in that sweet spot, but I don't know how to make that happen.

> One anecdote, 10 years ago, I went to a birthday party, a time where I hated social gatherings pretty much. Yet the day after I felt 'replenished' of somethings. As if my internal world couldn't satisfy me fully and even dreaded parties were benefitial.

I'm the same way towards social gatherings. As a result, I try to remind myself before going to one that I may hate that feeling of dread leading up to it, but that on the other side of it I am going to feel great. That doesn't mean I can be social all the time, but I think even introverts need that regular dose of social activity to feel whole. If anything, it makes those alone times we enjoy even more valuable as there's a contrast.

Seth Roberts wrote that he noticed a similar correlation in 1995 which he hypothesized came down to "morning faces". If he saw faces in the morning, he was happier the next day. He went on to test this therapy on himself for many years:

https://sethroberts.net/morning-faces-therapy-resources/

If you’re open to the spoons concept of interaction (any given person only has a finite number of spoons available for use until they need to be resupplied), there’s lots of different kinds of spoons. I have similar experiences: I’ll dread and stress a social experience until it comes, drain myself during it, then wake to find something full that was running low, something I may not have even been keeping track of.

There’s also a concept of mixed introvert/extrovert, and more to my liking a concept of introversion not being antisocial but craving certain intimate kinds of social experiences.

I thrive on a very small, somewhat malleable but always close social world. All other social demands are conditional on my ability and comfort. But my close social world can come call or (metaphorically during pandemic) hug or snuggle any time

This is nice to read, and very relatable. It took me a while to understand that social interaction is like leg days at the gym. It's painful if you are not used to it, therefore people tend to avoid it and end unbalanced.

As an introvert, forcing yourself to endure greater efforts of socialization reduces social anxiety, and ironically, makes life as an introvert easier as you no longer live in one of the extremes: you like to be alone, but you're not afraid to be with people.

As with leg day, if you don't use it, you lose it. This lock down has made hermits of some introverts, it takes effort to stay socially fit.

>People who buy fancy or fancier cars want the experience of driving those cars. //

Of the people I've known with fancy cars, that group would be a minority versus those who want you to know they are rich (even if they're not that rich!). Many people buy the badge/appearance AFAICT, and don't care about handling or other factors.

I don't really know the statistics on it.

I don't know, some higher entry Hyundais are not exactly cheap either, especially if you prefer to buy vehicles cash.

In a similar vein, you also pretty well ;)

That's a good point, because there are some people who spend their whole day on social interactions and still feel lonely.

The converse is true too.

Many felt, many times, totally alone and alienated in a group of friends.

Definitely not equal, but the overlap is pretty large

The article seems to confuse these too.

"Lonely people have been found, for example, to focus more on internal thoughts, perhaps to compensate for their lack of actual social experiences."

Well, for me, I daydream and live in my head a lot but I don't think I've ever really felt lonely in the last 10 years at least. So my brain probably looks like this but I would've responded to their survey with "not lonely". Maybe from their point of view I've been coping so long I don't even realise it?

I think a better study would have segmented out people who have limited social contact but don't feel lonely.

Post-apocalyptic movies with a small cast have a strange appeal to me, like it's the ideal small unit of society. We sort of got to experience that earlier this year in Sydney, with few cars on the road, no one walking around outside, and times when I didn't leave the house for days on end except to walk the dog. It was bliss. I had my dog and my wife and a few people on chat, and that's all I needed.

Social lives aren't unpredictable. They're almost comically predictable as time goes on.

Everyone in a group falls into patterns, roles. The same jokes get told, or variations there-of. You do the same thing every year. BBQ for Bob's birthday. Jill hosts a cheese/wine night a couple of times over winter. The geekier sub-group all gather to watch the first few episodes of the new marvel series. Everyone gets together for a picnic in woolaton park on the first or second sunny weekend of sunmer.

Occasionally something new gets thrown in, and if everyone likes it, it becomes the 'new' regular thing. Or something gets dropped due to changes in life or circumstances. No more games nights till 2am now 80% of my male friends have kids. No more Saturday night clubbing in the cookie club after we left our 20s.

If you want to keep doing unpredictable things, you really have to meet someone who's extremely hyper/exhausting, or keep joing new social groups (by meetups, etc.). And of course, they become predictable too, by their very nature being a scheduled meetup about a specific thing.

And it's worth it. Personally I feel the best experience in life is laughing so hard you end up crying while chatting with your friends.

You bring up a good point, even though I enjoyed drinking / partying with a startup I worked at in college, an experience I wouldn't trade for anything - at 26 I draw serious boundaries between work "outings" / social groups and personal friend groups. Personally, if I ever had a startup there'd be no alcohol at work and work would be for work. The last thing I need is someone claiming someone said something off color at a work outing. Work friends also get messy when you leave a company for good or bad reasons.

or, like me you are a true loner, and the world has convinced you that is bad.

> I've often wondered if this means I am an introvert. I don't hate other people - on the contrary, I always try to be kind and respectful, and I try to see the humanity in people, even those who hold different views to me. I care a lot about society and the future of our species and our planet. I just don't feel a need to have social interactions in these tight-knit groups, having realized that they were the source of pretty much all my emotional struggles.

I don't think whether one is an introvert necessarily has anything to do with whether one is kind and respectful. While being kind certainly seems like a beneficial thing if you're an extrovert, it doesn't seem quite necessary, and on the flip side preferring a quiet room doesn't mean one can't be kind.

At least, I feel the same as you in that I'm certainly not one to do lots of partying (ignoring the special case of 2020), but I always try to be kind, helpful, etc. I'm not sure I can find myself in your story about emotional struggles, but that might just be my young age.

> One thing I do think is important to note is that this is somewhat of a privileged position to be in

Agree completely, there are various advantages to being wealthy enough to make your own choices about how to organise your life. This amount of wealth does not even necessarily mean "being rich", though in a sense we in that position are definitely rich (both money and other things), even if there are people far richer in terms of monetary value. And those "various advantages" can wind up being more than one may think, both those in the position of wealth and those not in that position.

> I've often wondered if this means I am an introvert. I don't hate other people

I think the most basic and least-controversial definition is that introverts feel the need to "recharge" after a period of socializing whereas extroverts want an encore.

It's entirely possible to be introverted and also gregarious, outgoing, etc... It just means you need more breaks.

You articulated my feelings much better than I could've hoped to! I also struggled with mental health qualms through college, largely aided by an ADHD diagnosis at 22. Now that I know I'm on the fringes of the autism scale I've accepted that dating / relationships usually don't provide more social energy or positives than stress, negatives, or situations that make me feel lost or socially distant.

I sort of wonder if I'm giving something up by basically giving up on dating - but I've reached a very warm peace with it all as of late.

good for you. i would say the problem was that culture has a problem with loners, and won't leave us alone. we have to conform and be social. so we try. and it kills some of us. i'm glad you have figured it out.

To quote Financial Samurai:

"Own one car for show and another car for dough."

;)

>Loneliness is primarily a psychological state. A person who spends a lot of time alone, and is ok with that, is not lonely.

Not entirely though. Part of it can be self-dellusion, and the persons can still feel worse off for being alone even if introverted, but not consciously be able to process it. Humans are social animals, introversion can be part of a development issue (like being on the spectrum).

Do you always have a monologe going on? Say you now put down your phone or close your laptop and just stare out of your head and look at what's in front of you.

Will you have linguistically formulated sentences "coming to you" without pause?

It's obviously hard to describe, but yes, I had a very hard time thinking in words, but simultaneously I also had intermittently very racing thoughts. But as an example, imagine you're sitting home alone deciding what to eat for dinner. I have quite a verbose thought process where I almost pose questions and answer them to myself, like "Pizza? Naah, I had it yesterday, and it's quite fattening, I haven't worked out all week, I should get a sallad instead".

That was totally impossible to do. I could speak those things out aloud, but I couldn't really do them inside my head. If someone asked me a question, I couldn't prepare an answer in my mind before speaking. And those existentially depressing places my thoguths sometimes goes to were also not accessible.

I expressed it to those around me as "I can't think", which was obviously not completely true, but I think I was so focused/grounded in the pretty overwhelming experience that my mind couldn't really waste CPU cycles on wandering or evaluating what the best answer was to a question.

Ditto for my partner. She is constantly doing exactly what you described, and has diagnosed ASD.

I wouldn't say her inner dialogue is centered reminiscing or longing, which is what the article mentions in this study about those who are lonely; more so she's constantly running a post mortem on every social interaction she remembers to build a more robust "model" about how people work.

Before she was diagnosed, this tended to veer more towards paranoia and constant second guessing of herself, and often resulted in a feeling of loneliness.

Post diagnosis she is much more comfortable with these thoughts, and has used mindfulness practice as a means to stop herself from obsessing when it goes a little too far.

In 2019 I went on a solo biketour and it involved a lot of nigths in a tent. While campgrounds were rather cosy as just the knowledge that others are there brought me comfort, some wildcamping spots were much more unsettling. For me it was a fear of the wilderness and just hearing some noises in the middle of the night was... tense. Such nights were usually on high alert and quite restless.

10/10 will do it again ;)

A few months ago, I took an overnight trip out to the woods by myself. I slept in the bed of my truck on an abandoned forestry road somewhat deep into a state forest. I went with no pre-planned destination so I just turned onto unpaved forestry roads randomly until I eventually got to a quiet dead end that petered out. My wife knew the state forest I was in, but no one on Earth had a more precise location for me than that.

It was a little nervewracking and spooky even though in truth I was only about a twenty minute drive from the edge of the park and civilization. To know that if I slipped and broke a leg or something I'd be screwed for a couple of days until a crew could find me.

But I experienced it as a good kind of anxiety. I deliberately wanted to get outside of my comfort zone and spend a little time getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. It was an absolutely rewarding experience and one of the highlights of 2020 for me. I woke up the next morning refreshed, centered, and excited to return home to my family.

A quote I think about a lot is J. A. Shedd's, "A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for."

I wonder if those type of fears are something we grow out of with age, or if something else is going on there.

I really don't understand what's behind those types of irrational fears. Some nights I can't even walk from the kitchen to the bathroom without turning the light on in the corridor. I know there's nothing behind the corner, just like I'm sure you knew there were no "terrible things in the night coming to get you", yet I must turn on the light

When I was a kid, I used to think that adults are not afraid of the dark because they are adults. I'm almost 30 now, and I often wonder if I never really became an adult that's never afraid of the dark.

Solo backpacking (i.e. in the backcountry, not campgrounds) is a very different experience than with friends. The first time I did a longer trip (6 days) solo, I was terrified for the first 24 hours, but then eased into it and ended up having a really good experience. It can be intense, though. Even after the fear passes, other strong emotions might come up. Overall I prefer going with friends but I'm glad I've done some long solo trips too.

Happy birthday in advance.

As a 24 y/o who struggled with forming meaningful friendships in my teen years, your comment as someone in their 40s was soothing.

I'd like to reach that stage of life where I internalize the fact that other's validation doesn't matter as much as I think it does.

I completely and wholly understand -- intellectually -- that other folks opinion and/or attention toward me shouldn't have an impact on my self-esteem and well-being (and just like many others, I've even read whole books on this very topic), but putting it into practice has been a struggle and I find it super hard to fight against the in-built and well-oiled 'validation seeking' neural circuitry up in my head.

There are also other factors at play. I don't necessarily think that age alone has that influence. What about the increased network connectivity we have around us and the plethora of devices which carry that data? We're finding our validation through sites like HN instead of finding a human who shares our interests.

In your teens and 20s, you care what other people think about you.

In your 30s and 40s, you stop caring what other people think about you.

In your 50s and 60s, you realize that no one was really thinking about you after all.

A weird thing happened as I hit my late 30s. The best way I can describe it is 'acceptance'. I accept who I am, at my core, is defined by my genes, my experiences, and my experiences' affect on my genes. I used to think that if I just tried hard enough, I could be different. I could be cooler, more attractive, etc. Now? I simply accept that I am simply not compatible with some people, and that's ok.

I know that sounds like some sort of cringe hallmark card. I know I completely dismissed that sort of sentiment when I was younger, but as I've gotten older, I've found it rings more true.

Ha, I love your hypothesis btw! Because I came from the "I am older and know myself better"-angle, and you from the "it's nature's way of telling me I should move towards the sidelines, making way for new" (paraphrasing of course, no offense). It's a humbling concept. So pretty interesting to think about. Maybe there is a bit of both!

I'm concerned because my mother has spotted me doing this several times. Given my social anxiety, a lot of these conversation cause discomfort.

I have had similar imaginary conversations like yours. But I am concerned because these conversations run in my mind for like several hours, even when I'm writing code.

Yeah, by "normal" I was referring to my version of normal, which is not having these conversations so frequently that it disturbs your productivity.

Thanks for the tip! Will try tonight :)

I do the same thing. I listen to No Such Thing as a Fish podcasts.

I think this might be common in people who are generally socially anxious. TBH, this helps me in my social conversations too as I think of jokes the day before I have a talk with my friends. But this has increased in the recent weeks and I am concerned whether it is "normal" or not.

Absolutely me too. Especially the debates and speeches. It's actually very useful. I actually talk out loud. I don't talk out load what my debater/opponent is saying, that happens in my head!

I am an introvert too and it seems like having these conversation are common among such people. I don't keep a journal, so I will look into that :)

The tutoring someone part is so relatable considering that I am in university and usually have these conversations after I learn some difficult concept.

For what it's worth, it may actually be healthier to not do these, particularly 1 and 3. You may be ruminating, and ruminating is not good for you - it can tire you, agitate you, cause you anxiety; also, you end up being in your thoughts and not in the moment (e.g. when hiking).

It is fine and good if you are doing it with purpose (e.g. tutoring someone else in your mind to understand something better, or trying to work out some problem that has a solution), but bad if you are trying to solve something unsolvable, dwelling on the past or worrying about the future, or just wasting your own CPU cycles.

This is something you can practice as part of mindfulness practice - getting spontaneous awareness that you are engaging in an unproductive internal dialogue and letting it go. Not fight it or stop it, but just let the thoughts come and go without engaging with them.

+1 on the "tutoring someone else". All the time. I think the saying goes: "You don't know something until you can explain it simply".

This is very much a description of the modes I operate in! And I get very high levels of engagement with myself. My thoughts actually distract me a lot from real life verbal conversations as well. People think I'm not all there and I don't listen well, but in fact I'm just at a different wavelength and processing speed....

I can attest that I am wittier and verbally "quicker" when in a relationship or have more friends. In those cases even when I happen to be alone, I notice things to comment on, and can always find something to say. It's like... how will I remember all these interesting things I've seen or have happened to me and will want to tell my friends or girlfriend.

When I'm single and without many friends around, I rather just slide past life. I don't latch onto interesting stuff as much. I have my thought processes and goals and since nobody asks how my day was, there's no point in remembering minor inconsequential stuff. But as you don't need to remember them, you don't even notice them. Like even a mundane task of taking a package to the post will be more of an emotional adventurous roller coaster when I have people in my life and rather a goal-directed straightforward thing when not.

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Found this to be extremely helpful for PR-reviews; I have sometimes difficulties when writing sentences in order to not come across too harsh/snarky/negative etc., but with GIFs/pictures, it's easy to involve some humor while still bringing the point across.

Also see emojis and at a better but more niche example, twitch emotes where, for example, a selection of happy looking emotes may differentiate between a range of emotional descriptions of good/happy. It's a form of language.

A picture is worth a thousand words :)

Definitely fancier these days, but meme images are as old as civilization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictogram

Long ago I was getting evicted and the girl I was dating simply didn't want to deal with it.

I'd tell my sister to avoid any guy going though an eviction or without stable housing, likewise I don't get involved with anyone who isn't in a good situation.

And wada ya know, I'm a senior level engineer now, have had a few great relationships, and I'm in such a great place. But I also understand how fragile it all is. And with that exclusion is necessary.

This is very interesting...

Just finished the podcast.

I thought the husband had an entirely valid request of "Your tulpa can't be in a sexual relationship with someone else"

Obviously I don't know anything about the situation beyond what is in the podcast, but up until that point it seemed like a "my husband won't accept my quirks" type of thing.

After they read his excerpt, I was much more inclined to think she was really the one at fault for their relationship falling apart.

All I can say is I'm glad I'm not having to deal with that situation.

Given my (21m) loneliness, I find pretty much every young women sexy and desirable.

Not that I have a chance with any!

Beauty is subjective, but I'd bet that the majority finds the model pleasing to the eye. Generally, for subjective things, consensus is the true evaluation.

I hadn't noticed (because I always skip pictures in articles that don't look like data visualizations), but I went back to check, and the model looks very comfortable.

They are wearing a fashionable shirt that is off a shoulder and is longer than her pants. Her pants _are_ visible, so she is not half-dressed, she is just wearing pants that are much more useful for fashion than relaxing, which makes me think she has social activities planned. We also get a fairly large portion of the room in the shot, and it looks expensive and well-cleaned.

Again, I didn't notice this at all, but I do not think the poster is projecting at all, just reading into different cues.

> Does your aphantasia prevent you from day-dreaming, for instance?

I can "day-think" aka get lost in logical thoughts. I don't have the inner voice either, so it's less like reading a text and somewhat more like reading code. No narration, just a stream of... invisible "variables". It's hard to explain without having experienced what other people see or hear, I have no point of reference.

I also have the bad habit of forgetting people. "Out of sight, out of mind", except I do have object persistence. I imagine it is easier to randomly think about someone when you can hear or see them at will.

Not pop culture, but we were bored one day years ago and came up with a story about our cats being the proprietors of a hash bar on a flying ship of adventurers where they dressed and talked like 1920's mobsters running a speakeasy.

I made a back story for my dog. My newfie loved to inspect things. I'd come home with groceries. If I let her inspect (look & sniff) each bag, she'd be thrilled. When she'd find an interesting smell, she'd investigate it thoroughly. Would keep going long after the other dogs gave up.

She also loved keeping things in order. She didn't like it when the other cats and dogs would sometimes be chaotic. And she had some sort of code involving behavior: she was never selfish. If another cat or dog was already on her favorite pillow or eating her favorite snack, she'd let them have it. But if someone tried to cheat her or blatantly take something of hers, she'd react with growls and barks. She was clearly lawful good.

So we made up a long backstory. She was once a cop. Spent a lot of years street patrolling and getting to know everyone in her neighborhood. She was well liked, even by the street criminals. She was always fair to everyone she met. Even those who would not return fairness to her.

This all paid off. She eventually made detective. She was good investigating things. But something happened. She was backstabbed by corrupt people on the force. Got too close to breaking a case that would have taken down not only a major cartel, but also the cops who sold out. She was murdered.

Then reincarnated as a Newfoundland. She can't remember her past life clearly. But the desire to sniff everything out, and the desire to take care of everyone while keeping them in line, somehow persisted. She's driven to do something she doesn't completely understand, but she did it the best she could.

Her companion in life was an aussie who had a much simpler back story. She fit the manic pixie girl stereotype. Just pure chaos, pranks, and she liked stealing from and manipulating the poor newfie. They were a very odd couple: the by-the-rules ex-cop and the sarcastic girl who liked silly & mean jokes in equal proportion. But out on the trail, the aussie would put her silliness aside, and would work diligently with the newfie to solve whatever mystery they found. The typical odd couple of a modern police procedural.

I've now written multiple paragraphs about my dogs' stories. I guess that's my own way of reacting to the sheer loneliness of this year.

This is, essentially, how it happened with our cats. It's kind of a continuation of what happened with the pets my sister and I had growing up. We (as kids) made up stories, and our parents participated to some extent. We used to joke about making a book, "The Secret Life of Walter Kitty" (of course, someone else has done it, just checked). As adults, we just kind of continued it because, why not? It's entertaining and amusing just like any other story telling activity.

Right. It isn’t about objective criteria, but instead subjective self identification not associated with external measures.

Did Tesla care about a "good life"? You've already written him off as insane, His view on the world seems perfectly captured in his quotes and works.

I'm sorry to hear that. For what it's worth, you seem like a pretty exceptional being.

Reason I recommend bush fever: separating yourself from society (not just people, but infrastructure) is a good way to see who you are in a vacuum.

You're right, I misread it.