Adding Encrypted Group Calls to Signal

Yes, I can `apt source foo` and then spend annoying painstaking time dumping in the new version of the upstream source, fixing any weirdness with the build system, updating dependencies, etc. I've done this every now and then and I hate doing it. It doesn't help that Debian's packaging tools have worse UX than git, inscrutable errors, and nearly nonexistent detailed documentation.

In contrast, if upstream has its own debian directory checked into their source repo, I can usually expect it to work; all I'll need is a `sudo apt build dep . && dpkg-buildpackage -uc -us` and it should build without any futzing on my part. And if an even newer version later ends up in the official Debian repository, it'll get seamlessly updated with no further work on my part.

(Meanwhile I also appreciate being able to grab upstream Linux kernel source, copy in my local config, and run `make deb-pkg` in its root to get a perfectly-functioning, updated kernel that installs things to the right places and properly integrates with dkms and update-initramfs. Even just rebuilding Debian's shipped kernel is usually not that easy.)

> Note also that making "a" .deb package is not the same as making an official Debian package that satisfies the Debian Policy and passes the automated linters (lintian, piuparts, autopkgtest, etc). The second will have the minimum quality that Debian expects.

I frankly do not care about that one bit. All I want is something that I can trivially build, installs on and integrates (reasonably) well with my system, will get upgraded automatically if a newer version shows up in an official Debian repo, and I can easily remove with `apt purge foo`. A debian directory checked into the upstream ticks all those boxes. Trying to shoehorn newer upstream source into an existing Debian-maintained debian directory usually very much does not. If your experience differs, all the more power to you, but this has been my experience using Debian for many years now.

And you can put the stated criticisms of it in proper context. Then assess the costs and risks to yourself. Compare its use along with the rest of signal to the alternatives. And examine the response of Moxies team to issues.

At least that's what I did and came up with a "Hard Disagree" on that statement. Signal desktop is pretty good. (And no I don't like electron apps as a rule - it's the only one I use).

Deviation from perfection is not donkey dung.

>Signal desktop was missing basic features like answering [voice] calls...

vs

Messaging on phone and internet everywhere was missing end to end encryption before Signal. (Yes I used OTR with like 3 people, now I encryption with almost everyone, thanks signal).

Advantage signal. By a huge margin, for mine. Picked the essential feature. Got it right. Expanded from there. I find it pretty hard to fault what they're doing. People who want to do it differently because they think it's "better" (eg federation), don't seem to actually get much done in comparison to signal's massive win they chalked up for all of us.

I find it kinda odd that here, where people understand tech, there is more sticking up for facebrick, goo, appletax etc when they screw their users yet again than there is for Signal doing the opposite. The contrast between how they view people who use their stuff is very, very stark. Signal are pretty great. We need more love for anyone who can achieve at a similar level to make computing better for us. To push competition toward being better at privacy, security and so on and away from the direction of turnkey totalitarianism surveillance that the Stasi could only have wet dreams about. Alarmist right? Could bad things really happen here? Are the interests of Cook, Zuck, Seregey, Larry, Jeff et al not precisely yours or a wider population's? They all do seem really quite friendly to despotic regimes. But I guess those reigimes are foreign?

The front end, however, remains significantly better on WhatsApp than on Signal.

I continue to use both daily, and as much as I loathe Facebook, I still prefer the UX on WhatsApp way more than Signal. That they look similar is more down to the fact that messengers today all look the same (look at facebook messenger, iMessage) than that WhatsApp has taken Signal's front end. If anything, Signal is slowly trying to emulate WhatsApp features, in a more privacy-preserving way, which understandably takes time.