Why are new devices dependent on the Internet but made with little forethought?
circuitbored.com
circuitbored.com
I grew up in the 80s and have owned several cars from that era. They were significantly less reliable than cars of today. Carburetors were still present (though being phased out) and there were always vacuum hoses that, when they leaked, caused your car to run like crap.
Also, phones: Cellphones were extremely expensive and unreliable. Landlines were extremely unreliable at reaching other humans because as often as not, the recipient wasn't home. Also, I remember all kinds of problems with landline wiring leading to noisy connections. Also, unless you were calling a close neighbor, you paid high per-minute charges.
It's really hard to find something that was better in the pre-internet era. Cars and phones aren't it.
You're missing the point, and misinterpreting that statement to mean something far broader than it actually says. The article is about unnecessary internet dependency, not about the mechanical reliability of cars, and it's a derail to make it about that.
Also, you're interpreting "a time back when the Internet didn't exist" as the 80s. For most people, the internet didn't exist as late as 1995, and I've driven some pretty reliable cars from that era.
Something you're overlooking with your concept of "reliability" is that cars produced before 1980 can be fixed using pretty basic tool. It's conceivable that a car from that era could continue to work well into the 2100s. Because most of what can break on can be remanufactured by a reasonably-skilled machinist.
Yeah, cars need to be fixed much less often, and they are substantially less fickle vis-a-vis temperature and operating conditions. But the moment the software to repair newer cars is gone, so too goes our ability to easily fix them.
This isn't some far-flung dystopian idea either. It's totally possible that the hardware & software used to repair today's cars is difficult or impossible to come by in 30 years. Some of this stuff is five- and six-figure investments. Maybe stuff for GM or Honda vehicles will be accessible, but what about smaller companies like Mazda or Subaru?
Having a machine that can operate for 200+ years with refurbishment is type of reliability.
There are pros and cons to each. The former is good so long as your country continues to grow, remains wealthy & educated, and retains the ability to constantly produce better replacements. Not every country has that luxury.
The VW Type 2 (what Americans call the "VW Bus") remained in production for the Brazilian market until 2013. That's a poor country and cars are expensive, so the ability to have a vehicle last a lifetime is very important. The Type 2 is something that can be repaired by almost any machine shop with basic fabrication tools.
You'll see this a lot in developing countries. Where "new" automobiles would be recognized as a 1980s or 1990s model by those living in developed countries. Manufactures keep them going because the tooling is cheap and easy to keep going.
Those 80/90s cars are dead reliable too.
Once the spare parts for an American 2020 Honda Civic are exhausted, it's unlikely that new parts can be fabricated. That's fine, so long as there's a 2050 Honda Civic or similar to available replace it, and that such a vehicle can still be afforded.
> I would never have maintained a thousand-dollar toolbox to fix and maintain my car
You might be surprised by how much work you can do on a 90s-era Japanese car with a 14mm wrench and a screwdriver.
Mid-70s and earlier cars tend to be simpler, but they would never pass modern emissions tests. We picked clean air and fuel efficiency over simplicity. I don't think this was wrong.
It's really hard to know what to think about the direction cars are heading. Yeah, there's a lot of closed software and electronics. On the other hand, I have at least one friend with a hacked Tesla. And the huge emissions regulatory and inspection regime that prevents you from making changes to engines doesn't apply to electric cars. So it's a mixed bag.
In practice, that means that most states which have any emissions inspections now just connect to the OBD2 port, check for ready and no faults, and pass the car, with cars that predate OBD2 being either visually inspected for obvious defects or not inspected at all for emissions.
But yes, to my knowledge, most (all?) operate fine without a cell signal.
Not heard a single story of an internet connected car not having basic functionality work without internet.
Still, Nintendo does a pretty good job of avoiding most critical bugs before release even on the Switch.
It's also why classic music, books, movies, etc are great - decades of pruning leaving a short list of best-ofs.
Back in 90's in order to survive game producers had to have sense of quality and knowledge of definition of "finished".
I loved the "fixes" to Plants vs Zombies when EA bought popcap.
Today's games are more buggy, in part because they're much more complex, and in part because software update allows to ship them unfinished.
OTOH, software update is being widely abused nowadays, there's no pressure to get it right off the bat. As long as the update framework is robust, everything else can be weak since you can send another patch whenever you want.
Phones are maybe an odd example, but it's somewhat true: Traditional phone systems let you make local calls even if long-distance lines fail, or within a building without leaking data externally. Very few people would ever need (or expect) newer voice/video chat systems to be usable in this way, and they largely aren't.
There’s a lot that still sucks, but I don’t miss landlines the slightest bit. Scheduled do not disturb is a godsend next to trying to remember to turn the ringer on the landline in the hallway off at night.
I think most people don't realize why phone calls suck these days; it just feels awkward and cumbersome, but it doesn't have to be that way.
And personally, as someone who grew up in the 80's, let me offer up a counter-anecdote: I don't ever recall hearing a "fast-busy tone". There was never a time we couldn't use our land line (at least until we had a modem, that is).
1) In the event of a major disaster, you've probably evacuated. You can't take your landline with you.
2) Telephone poles burn.
3) Even if the cellular system is completely hosed, you might still be able to get on a data network. All you need is crappy wifi anywhere (cafe, hotel, friend) and you can get an email out.
1) Not all disasters can be evacuated away from. Tornadoes, for example.
2) So do power poles. And those telephone poles are also probably carrying data.
3) You can't dial 911 via email.
Cell network congestion is a well known phenomenon when disasters strike. It's been seen multiple times in the past. Yes, landlines can and do fail as well, but they're more resilient than cellphone networks.
Perhaps this will flip in the future, but it hasn't, not yet.
2) Yes, power goes out too. Cellphones have batteries.
3) Yes, you can dial 911 via "wifi calling". I've done it.
I don't know about "hate" but I do think landlines are overrated. You already have a cellphone. Paying for an extra service and apparatus for the tiny possibility that you need to call 911 when your cellphone can't - why? Who else are you going to call? Do you even know their phone numbers without your cellphone?
I also think you're undervaluing cellphones by assuming they only talk on the cellular network. You just need to get on a data network somewhere and you suddenly have a wide variety of communication options, including phone calls. TCP/IP was designed to withstand nuclear war.
You generally have some charge on your phone, though, and lots of folks have power banks now - or cars they can charge their phones with.
Don't forget all the times when disaster strikes and the cell phones are a real help: Car accidents, for example. At one time, you were reliant on you - or someone else - stopping by a house and hoping they'd be home. And I'm sure there are lots of other examples of this as well. Now that laws changed, cell phones can pretty much always call 911 as well, even without service at all: This was not the case with phone lines. If the house didn't have service, you couldn't get help.
Crucially, however, there is no profit in getting to the point of being properly provisioned for emergencies, and no regulation pushing for it. Land lines, in contrast, are regulated to push for availability during emergencies.
I got fast busy tones several times a year back in the 80's, and it usually corresponded to whenever a concert was announced. Maybe my phone company back then was as bad as your mobile services company is now?
POTS is amazing, and its sad to see it going away :(
I believe this is what the author tried to explain.
Internet and technological advancement is not evil per se, too much power in a very tiny group is going to be problematic.
even that is changing according to youtubers like Kilmer. IIRC he has lambasted his favorite car maker Toyota for having a lower quality today than years past.
The NEXT Google Outage will involve 32 million cars refusing to run because they can't log in to your Google Account.
Something, something, "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. ... Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."
I have a Nest thermostat. It works fine without the network. I have a modern car. It works fine without the internet. Several of my friends have Teslas. They work fine offgrid.
It's just nonsense. Stop defending it.
And don't Nest thermostats occasionally have an issue where they default back to somewhere in the 60° range due to a server connectivity issue?
https://support.google.com/googlenest/thread/20510237?hl=en
Doesn't seem like nonsense.
Other fun internet connected car reads:
https://www.wcpo.com/money/consumer/dont-waste-your-money/wo...
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/306338-phone-app-rental-...
Even if there have been a few historical software bugs that caused some Nests to change temperature, it did not "become completely unresponsive in the middle of winter". Worst case is you walk up to the device and turn the temperature back up. Also, there's nothing in that bug report that suggests it has anything to do with internet connectivity.
A quick google search shows plenty of people getting locked in non-internet-connected cars.
The modern world is complex. Even before I replaced my thermostat with a Nest, my furnace was already way more fragile than my fireplace.
Big ticket home items like fridges, washer/dryers, TVs. They're all planned to shit the bed just after their warranty wears out so that companies can squeeze out extra money from them. Nothing is made with pride anymore. There's many facets as to why this is, but as a civilization I don't think we're ever going to be able to go back to the way "the way things were"
It's not that we don't need the internet, it's arbitrarily requiring the internet for apps when they worked without it before.
We are getting to the point where we will need an Underwriter Labs-style independent body to say, to anybody selling an internet-connected device, "your device is not secure enough to be sold; you are forbidden to sell it until you get your security house in order".
This wouldn't solve every problem, but it would solve a lot of it, simply because the cost required to pay for good security would cause most IoT devices that don't really need it, to get rid of it, in order to cut cost and reduce time to market. Only if it if really added a lot of value would the maker be willing to pay for good security; that does not include most IoT today.
That would ensure my smart front door lock doesn't default to always-locked, or always-unlocked.
I do think there's a fine line to walk between these devices and "general purpose computer"-type devices though, and I'd worry about this at least a little bit given the trend that appliance-type devices seem to be taking over the world (especially if you include phones).
Separately, I do still want to see a UEFI-style secure boot architecture for appliances. An appliance can have a default mode where it only accepts firmware signed by the manufacturer. But then if a user wants to install their own key and load their own firmware (because the manufacturer has stopped supporting the device, has gone out of business, writes shitty firmware, or just to use hardware that they own in a different way), most devices should make this possible, and it would be interesting to think about what a legal requirement would look like here. A manufacturer could gate access via a configuration menu, or by cutting a trace/jumper or with a write protect screw like on Chromebooks. And you could have entire classes of devices where open access is explicitly not allowed, like medical devices.
But smart speakers? Manufacturers should not be allowed to cryptographically guarantee that they become trash after two years.
I see people buying internet-required devices as the same people who buy the registry cleaners. They don’t know enough about computers themselves, and the advertorials/computer magazines don’t do them any favors.
In some cases, you don't have a choice. As far as I know, all current Roomba models have their schedule programmed via an smartphone app. I don't have one, so I don't know if it exactly requires the internet, but it's close. Older models (like the ones I have) used buttons on the unit and had no need for any kind of network at all.
That's not quite right. For all practical purposes, internet control also requires a server sitting on a public IP address somewhere, and that's where things start break down.
1. If you run the server yourself, then you're dealing with patching it and otherwise supporting that infrastructure.
2. If a third party tries to run a server as some kind of service, they're stuck supporting all the protocols and schemas of all kinds of internet connected devices, since AFAIK there are little to no standards. Then there's the problem of funding such a project.
With both of the above situations, the device also needs to support configuring a different server.
3. If a manufacturer runs the server, then you avoid most of the problems of the above options, but then you're at their mercy, and liable to loose functionality at some indeterminate point in the future.
The invisible hand of the market, PBUH, appears to have determined that 3 is the best (most profitable) option.
We really need to get over this hurdle. In the ipv4 world, yea, users generally have one public IP and NAT complicates things a little. In the IPv6 world, every device should be publicly addressable and it should just be a firewall rule to make it accessible to your smartphone app. That way, no server is required, so the question of who runs it is moot.
Which reminds me of the DSL modem/router combo my roommates had gotten in my first apartment before I moved in. The router was MSN and had no local configuration page, all configuration had to be done through some external Microsoft server that didn't work by the time I got there (so I could never do any port forwarding).
Why do we still ask these questions?
And people don't care about the long term. :(
- Sir, that was for software, not hardware.
Probably iRobot has similar terms and conditions when they sell their robots, right?
I mean, eventually someone has to pay for R&D. (Sure, I'm not saying this is the best way, but apparently people really don't like paying for R&D - see how the Ubuntu phone, OpenMoko and similar projects basically flopped.) It turns out to really get money (financial capital) for research, the best way is to be in the market.
Just research things tend to move very slowly.
You see "forethought" in devices offered to the public when regulation DEMANDS it: think cars, bridges, medical devices, because (or so it's been rationalized), the public needs accountability (a named, professionally licensed, buck-stops-with-them head to roll) when that product can cause harm.
But software harms TOO!. Think privacy, banking, relationships. Those can be harmed. It's always felt to me like a historical accident that networked devices, really most software in general, slipped past this accountability requirement. Without a specific , named accountable person, security seems to fall into the not-my-problem phenomenon, and continues generates articles like from the OP.
In the imagined future where signoff from professional engineers was required, you'd see pushback against a vendor by the engineer until the implementation was secure, because the engineer's licensure was on the line until it was secure. And the vendor couldn't just "shop" for a favorable signoff, because every engineer would be held to the same ethical standard and penalty.
It's a hard problem.
Also - and I'm not saying requiring sign off is a bad idea - , but it's not a coincidence that secure walled gardens look like a manicured Black Mirror dystopia.
As they say "live and let live". We already have this control where it is needed. Leave the rest to manage their own affairs.
Maybe one day when all this is actual infrastructure and all that goes with the idea, standards, service entities who will be there, are regulated, etc.
Maybe then, I will reconsider.
And let's be clear. I have no problem with pioneers pioneering. Have fun! I just have different priorities.
I have 3 robot vacuums (one is technically a mop). Two are internet connected, one is not. The two internet connected ones are kept up-to-date and get new capabilities from time to time. And one of these is also accessible from the local network too. This is great. At least I know that, should the company decide to support the product, I'll retain some of the capabilities.
Which is something that happened to my Pebble. The community did step in and provide some missing functionality, but it wasn't a seamless transition.
The biggest issue is the amount of e-waste we are creating by having - otherwise perfectly functional devices - being thrown away because their command and control servers were shutdown.
There should be some mandate that companies are required to support the internet connected product for X number of years, just like cars. If they go out of business they should be required to release the control software.
Early on we had competing visions, best practices were being learned the hard way and regulation was in its infancy.
Later on, with a lot settled, electricity became utilitarian, but not a given still.
My camp trailer fridge works on 110v or propane. The table radio in it works on 110V, 12V or batteries inside the device.
I have (dangerous) gas lighting in that unit as well as electric.
Power isn't a given and the devices from the era are designed to operate under that state of things.
This all seems very early. We lack foresight because people are pioneering. Users of this tech are also pioneering. Someone is gonna do it. Let's hope they do it increasingly well and sooner.
One day, this will all be real infrastructure, with all the girls along with: regulation standards the usual.
Until then it's kind of a wild west.
Play hard, but play eyes wide open too. Or pass and watch as it all forms to be more robust just like people did with electricity.
I'm pretty sure the onboarding experience contributes to poor reviews, so the goal is to make it as easy as possible.
I remember the days where all devices came with a CD/floppy with software you had to install. (I had a device once that had to port scan my home network to find what it needed to connect to.)
Even if you know what you want, and you know it's possible, it's difficult or impossible sometimes (without building it yourself) to find hardware that doesn't rely on internet connectivity and some user account.
Edit: I read the post and it's as guessed. (money)
It's cheap, it works for a year or two. It's apparently more than enough.
[1] I'm not talking about theoretical geek-fantasy concerns about how the Mossad, or some other sufficiently sinister and all-powerful organization[2], can stop your heart by varying the power setting on your internet-connected Roomba, or map out the internal layout of your apartment and fly a poison-dart-tipped AI-controlled drone into it. I'm talking about actual, demonstrable harm to the typical end user. People grousing on the internet about security have done an incredibly poor job of this.
[2] That for some reason is futzing around with thermostat zero-days, instead of just taping a bomb to the underside of your car, or scrubbing your teapot with polonium, or jabbing you with a poison-tipped umbrella.
Also because Google Assistant and Alexa require cloud to cloud communication. Which customers also want.
And cheap WiFi devices such as the esp8266 are very optimized for a single tcp socket.
On the other hand, electricity replaced many things that were either more dangerous in themselves (like gas lighting) or more physical work (like laundry). And the only significant downside (I'm ignoring the dangers electricity posed) was that it sometimes stopped working, although in those cases you probably had your manual fall-back (candles and a wash-tub).