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Comment by exDM69 | Hacker News Reader

Oof. I was just getting used to the idea that we have a decent rally sim/game (Dirt Rally) again.

It's a niche genre that requires a specialized physics engine, and there hasn't been decent entrant after Richard Burns Rally (2004) or before that. That was/is maintained by community binary patches for years and years after it EOL'd.

Rally car physics can't be simulated with just any car physics model, there is a lot going on with tyres on loose surfaces, differential gears in the drive train, turbo chargers etc.

I can't see it being lucrative enough for EA to make a niche game like that.

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Don't worry, you will be able to buy this exact same game for 60$ per year for eternity now

Hand brake turn? $12 unlock

Don't be ridiculous they'll at least change the driver names, totally worth $60.

I don't think that's going to happen, they will just quietly kill Dirt Rally. That game is just way too difficult for a mainstream audience so it makes a poor platform to milk microtransactions.

The rest of the Dirt series (same name, very different game) might continue to exist to complement their NFS car game lineup.

Most likely though is that EA only wanted the licenses to F1 and WRC series.

> Most likely though is that EA only wanted the licenses to F1 and WRC series.

Typical.

No, for $60 each year you're purchasing the base game. Extra race cars will be made available from random loot boxes costing only 15 DiRTCoInZ each! What a steal! Your friends will be so envious when they see you in that ultra rare limited edition car, so get those boxes!

For 15$ moreyou can get the deluxe edition with 2 exclusives cars and 5 soundtracks.

And now there is a sale on for 14 DiRTCoInZ for the low low price of $9.99, or, if you like, an even better deal: 29 DiRTCoInZ for only $14.99!

I remember when EA bought popcap and Plants vs Zombies 2 put literal price tags each plant.

99% of the time though, you'll just win the same paint job for a car you don't own, or maybe a nifty steering wheel cover you can't see in game maybe if you're really, really lucky, you'll win some cool spinning rims....again...that only works for a car you don't own that can only be won from a different kind of lootbox available only during special events...

Also, all these things are one day trials...that have to be used within 7 days or they expire.

Not if it suffers the same fate as the Burnout series, in which case we’ll get one sequel before it’s put to pasture.

Burnout and Burnout 2 were made by Acclaim, yes, but there was more than just Burnout 3 with EA. Wikipedia mentions eight games. And yes, the series is dead (which is a shame), but Burnout Paradise became available on the Switch around June this year.

Richard Burns Rally is still played today. Unfortunately due to Codemaster's requirement for RaceNet, Dirt Rally 2.0 will not see the same longevity. CM should remove this requirement before the EA acquisition. EA has a long history of shutting down online services required to play games.

Actually, EA doesn't always kill games it shuts servers for. In fact, it gave the rights to online hosting of its entire back catalog of games to the amazing Aussie Scott Kevill, who runs GameRanger. You can play games as far back as Dungeon Keeper 2, or as recent as some of the new Battlefields on GameRanger, completely for free. It supports almost 1000 old PC games, and allows you to play online in games that only supported LAN play at launch. Command and Conquer, Medal of Honor, tons of others: https://www.gameranger.com/games/

EA made an announcement about this but didn't make a big deal about it: https://answers.ea.com/t5/C-C-The-Ultimate-Collection/Info-G...

I hate companies that kill online servers for games, and have dedicated a large portion of my life to bringing these games back, but EA hasn't really caused this type of situation in a while, thanks to GameRanger. There's plenty to dislike about EA, but killing online servers is something they actually handle better than most other PC game companies: everything is on GameRanger.

The decisions to withdraw particular features or modes of certain EA games, or to retire online services relating to older EA games are never easy. The development teams and operational staff pour their hearts into our games, their features and modes almost as much as the players, and it is hard to see one retired. As games are replaced with newer titles, the number of players still enjoying the games that have been live for some time dwindles to a level – typically fewer than 1% of all peak online players across all EA titles – where it’s no longer feasible to continue the behind-the-scenes work involved with keeping the online services for these games up and running. [1]

[1] https://www.ea.com/service-updates

Games impacted by the above policy:

https://www.ea.com/service-updates/a-h

https://www.ea.com/service-updates/i-q

https://www.ea.com/service-updates/r-z

Certainly not all of those, but a fair number of those are supported on GameRanger. Battlefield 2, for example. They do still kill games, no denying that, and their track record with MMO's is terrible, but comparing the number of old EA games you can still play on GameRanger with the back catalog of a publisher like Ubisoft, EA has WAAAAY more old games still playable online with GameRanger.

Again, it's not a complete solution, butit seriously supports the vast majority of popular old EA games. Yeah, it doesn't support Monopoly for Wii... but for PC games it's the tits.

I don't think it is a stretch to assume that GameRanger will never add RaceNet server emulation.

> Richard Burns Rally is still played today.

Yes, thanks to a small community of volunteers (to whom I am very grateful) maintaining it with patches you need to download from a forum website.

If you install it from original install media to a Windows 10 box, it won't even launch without the 3rd party patches.

I loved the Dirt series, I think I might have to go buy a recent version.

I've been getting into racing games again recently and the sheer number of RPG elements, unlocks, micro-transactions etc. in things like Forza is exhausting. And that isn't even EA.

I can't just restart the race, I have to wait while it loads 3 screens to show me how I'm 300 points nearer to unlocking some pointless skin or hitting the next tier or whatever.

> I loved the Dirt series, I think I might have to go buy a recent version.

Do note that Dirt Rally isn't really related to the rest of the Dirt series. The former is a pretty decent simulation of rally driving, while most of the Dirt series are "car games" with a physics model that's not intended to be realistic but fun to play on a gamepad.

"It's a niche genre that requires a specialized physics engine"

That will be a big problem as EA tends to push all its companies to use the Frostbite engine.

The engine is not really the issue. They could develop the Frosbite Engine to handle proper Dirt racing physics.

I think the main show stopper here is that EA doesn't make niche game. They make games that will sell millions of units. So I highly doubt that they will develop a accurate Dirt racing game, they will do what they did with every franchise: Make the gameplay incredibly "accessible" but dumbing it down a lot. You will end up with another generic racing game with a slightly more slippery physics.

They are at least publishing some nicher titles with EA Originals. I'm also not entirely convinced that DiRT is more niche than for example Madden, which is a series of sports games about a sport that is really only popular in one country.

I'm also not entirely convinced that DiRT is more niche than for example Madden

Madden is one of the better selling game franchise of all time with over 130 million copies sold. Despite this years Madden game being by far the worst reviewed Madden game in ages, it's still the 3rd highest selling game this year.

>it's still the 3rd highest selling game this year

Globally or in the US?

Sorry, you're right. Globally It appears to be the 8th best selling console game this year. But more importantly it consistently sells those sort of numbers every single year without fail. Far from a niche game (or at least its a very popular and extremely profitable niche).

In the total global videogame market.

So, yes, mostly in the US.

> DiRT is more niche than for example Madden,

Dirt Rally, the rally sim, definitely is a smaller niche and the only one of its genre still under active development.

The rest of the Dirt series, which don't AFAIK share the physics engine with Dirt Rally, is much more mainstream.

Although I can't guess what the market size is for a racing game these days.

> I'm also not entirely convinced that DiRT is more niche than for example Madden

I used to work on Madden. Maybe this is non-obvious if you're not in the US, but it is hard to understate what a monumental cash cow that product is. It is like Excel is to Microsoft. It's a veritable firehose of money.

> really only popular in one country.

Sure, but that country has the third largest population in the world, and a greater GDP than the next two countries combined.

"That will be a big problem as EA tends to push all its companies to use the Frostbite engine."

It's actually changing since Patrick Söderlund left and Respawn has been succesful at releasing games not on Frostbite ( Apex Legend, SW Jedi Fallen Order ).

All Respawn games(Titanfall 1 and 2 as well) are on Source engine, for anyone wondering.

SW Jedi Fallen Order runs on UE4.

I bought a racing wheel with pedals and shifter just for that one game. RIP Dirt Rally.

I did that for Richard Burns Rally

My hours playing Colin McRae Rally 2.0 with a force feedback wheel possibly saved my life. Driving on a motorway one winter coming round a bend, I suddenly encountered a patch of snow that hadn't been cleared. There was no time to slow down ahead of it, I was in the outside lane and with a vehicle in the lane next to me - I just gripped the wheel and responded with the reflexes I'd built up from the snow stages.

The car twitched and started snaking but I kept it under control in a way I know I wouldn't have been able to without the hours of in-game training.

I’ve never felt that time spent in a static simulator translates to real world car control at all. So much of driving at speed or at edge of vehicles performance is understanding the balance of the car as it shifts in bends or slides etc, something you simply can’t feel in a static chair no matter how impressive a force feedback steering wheel you purchase.

I’ve unfortunately been in several cars where driver has lost control and avoided an accident - most drivers in my experience can counter the scenario you describe intuitively - steer opposite way of slide, lift off gas to correct etc, just feels natural if you have driven a car even a small period of time.

Other’s mileage may vary of course!

> lift off gas to correct

Good in an FWD car, but this could kill you if you're driving RWD - lift-off oversteer is a common thing, so you really want to _reduce_ throttle input without completely cutting it.

Lift off oversteer can be done in FWD cars too - its just another variation on a clutch kick/handbrake/sharp steering input/whatever to lose traction to start the slide. I think we can likely all agree the finer points of managing oversteer is a little beyond scope of this discussion!

Chances of you driving anything today without ESC/DSC/etc (whatever your manufacturer labeled it) on really rare too unless you decided to turn it off, especially if it's only driving the rears. ESC is incredibly effective even on 20 year old cars.

Can't even turn that stuff off on a lot of cars, the button only partially disables it; some cars need a cheat code to fully disable, some simply can't. I wanted to boot my CX-5 around in a snowy parking lot but it kept deciding things like "ignore throttle input entirely and don't spin the wheels" when spinning all four madly is all I wanted to do.

I’ve never felt that time spent in a static simulator translates to real world car control at all.

It does, but you have to be intentional about recognizing the deficits, similar to how you can only get so much takeoff + landing training from a flight sim, and too much is detrimental. A quality FF setup + good pedals makes a massive difference on practicing good road-feel response into your brain. VR steps it up further with the full visual experience and helps with yaw angle management.

Check out this article about using a racing sim to train drivers during COVID:

https://dirtfish.com/rally/robert-reid-virtual-rally-safety/

A generation of sim racers are starting to successfully cross over into real-life motorsports, most notably James Baldwin. The general consensus is that drivers with massive amounts of sim experience have excellent consistency and sensitivity, but limited racecraft skills. Contrary to your argument, the lack of sensory feedback seems to be actively advantageous in the long-term, because fast sim racers have learned to interpret more subtle signs of roll, yaw and tyre slip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq5S_-GN0cY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5nTsgIG4jo

I had to stop playing Dirt because I kept unconsciously reaching for the e-brake on tight turns to set up a nice Scandinavian flick.

When I was driving IRL.

I too will be ready in case of the return of the dragons or a solitary crash landing on an alien planet with just a pickaxe. ;)

That said, I believe commercial flight simulators fulfill some of the FAA requirements of flying an aircraft.

I will gift myself a wheel+pedals+shifter this Christmas just for that game ahaha.

Well it's not as if the game is going away right? You can still play it.

Yeah, until EA gets tired of it and kills RaceNet.

Dirt Rally 2.0 requires an internet connection even for single-player modes.

Me too. Mind you, I'm still trash at it, but it is really really fun.

It works pretty well on Linux as well.

Step up to iRacing rally racing, if your wheel and pedals are USB/PC compat.

iRacing doesn't have rallying, only rally cross, which despite the similar name is not the same category of motorsport. RX is multi-car circuit racing, no pace notes, etc.

That said, how is the dirt racing in iRacing? I haven't had the time to try it in several years.

Dirt Rally was a decent sim, the issue is that no company can release a pure sim today simply because of how niche the market is and the cost of game development.

Codemasters have been going more arcade like and focusing on community content for a while now, they had a rather successful experiment with Onrush and many of the Onrush features are in Dirt 5 now, EA is essentially looking at Codemasters as those who can deliver the fortnite of racing games and they might be able to do so.

That doesn’t mean you won’t get a game that is a good enough sim, codemasters still has the exclusive rights to the rally franchise, so you’ll get quite a wide range of driving mechanics and good simulation and steering wheel support but you can’t build a game that requires a steering wheel and pedal setup today and expect it to sell.

> Codemasters have been going more arcade like and focusing on community content for a while now

The F1 game has been solidly arcade-y since at least 2010.

Take a look at a game called DRAG. It's still in beta, but it has good reviews so far and does have a native Linux version. The devs seem to be pro-Linux. It looks to be very much in the simulation category of racers.

Dirt Rally 1 is also Linux native.

I remember Rallisport Challenge 2 was a fantastic game. Then I got the original DiRT, which had incredible graphics, but the car physics felt off. The cars seemed to rotate from a centre point when you turned. Like if you were square against a wall or barrier on your left, and tried to steer right, the back end of the car would initially press into the wall. Can't remember exactly, but I remember many people had similar complaints. To be fair, it wasn't terrible, but the steering just felt a bit more floaty than it should, IMO.

Do you know if the physics in Dirt Rally have improved on this? Or does the underlying issue remain?

I don't know about this specific issue, but it's hard to compare those two. If DiRT was simcade (more arcade than sim) then Dirt Rally would definitely be sim. Maybe not on the level of iRacing or Asetto Corsa, but it's as good as it gets (maybe Richard Burns Rally is more authentic, but it is pretty old)

iRacing has rally, so not technically "as good as it gets", but definitely know what you mean.

iRacing has rallycross and dirt track, but no rally mode.

> Do you know if the physics in Dirt Rally have improved on this?

Yes, the physics in Dirt Rally is not at all the same as with other Dirt series. It has got a pretty decent simulation of rally cars on gravel and other surfaces. It's awesome!

Also, don't EA kill every racer they have in order to funnel money towards NFS?

Think of the immersion when new virtual tires for your virtual rally car cost as much as actual tires! Another EA innovation!

> or before that

You forget Colin McRae Rally, surely?

Yes, well, sort-of.

Colin McRae was a pretty cool game in its day but didn't really have the great physics that RBR did. But it was an earlier game so it was the best that there was available.

I think RBR's physics are still well beyond anything Code masters has on offer today.

WRC is a GREAT rally game. Check it out.

It is, but DR is definitely the more polished experience. DR2 has by far the best engine sounds of any race sim.

It's a good game, but a bad sim - the physics aren't anything like as accurate as Dirt Rally.

The original ‘RalliSport Challenge’ for the original X-box is one of my favorite racing sims.

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