I feel like Taibbi had an axe to grind against Robinhood or else he would have tried to separate the "bad" (puts, options, a sense of gambling) vs the good (low barrier to entry, easy to buy what you want, etc).
I feel like Taibbi had an axe to grind against Robinhood or else he would have tried to separate the "bad" (puts, options, a sense of gambling) vs the good (low barrier to entry, easy to buy what you want, etc).
It's nice that free trades are the new normal and I don't think there is anything wrong with payment for order flow, but on the other hand, $7 is just not that bad a price. If you can't afford $7 trades then either you are trading too often, or you should stick to paying off your credit card debt and building up an emergency fund.
Vanguard's UI isn't pretty but it's functional and not hard to use. How often are you going to use it anyway?
In other words, the cost of opiates is not the bigger problem in the industry. And the problem with cigarettes is not the cost. It's the overusage on both fronts.
If making trades free leads to more day trading (it does), then we are most certainly going to see a net negative effect on consumers.
Trading stocks doesn't lead people to physical dependence, nor does it typically ruin their lives. Buy-and-hold will almost always lead to returns, provided that a portfolio is diversified enough. Smoking, taking opiates recreationally, etc. almost always lead to premature death.
Robinhood (and Wall Street overall) isn't beyond criticism, but this seems like a particularly bonkers analogy.
This is ignoring the original point, though. Commission fees are practically irrelevant to a buy and hold strategy because of the time scales involved. Commission fees only matter for trading, which does in fact ruin lives.
I don't trust anything to be done about it in 2020 - but it is clear if this was a time when regulators had a bit more sway that basic rules would be put in place to make this type of gambling behavior hard.
For long term investments, low fees per trade don't matter. And with day trading the retail investors will always lose against the HFT guys. The only people profiting from average joes doing day trading are the HFT funds and companies like Robinhood.
I think we’d do better judging the stock market for this systematic issue rather than some app which makes it easier to exploit that issue. Is robinhood part of the problem? Sure. But it’s not at the root of the problem.
I keep seeing people referring to RH somehow "gamifying" the experience, but I just don't see it, it feels like just throwing a buzzword at RH until that buzzword sticks.
The only thing they did in terms of UI is made it very simple and convenient to use. If that's what counts as "gamification" in 2020, then I am all for it. I just thought that this term usually referred for stuff like "achievements", some goals/scores, objectives completed, etc. RH has none of that. All it has is a very good UI that is pleasant to use.
If someone could clarify what RH does that constitutes "gamification", I am curious to hear.
Also, does anyone really believe that we would be better off if everyone were paying transaction fees for trades? The door for HFTs buying trading data is open and can't easily be closed (unless there were regulatory action, which seems unlikely), so what good does it do anyone to pay fees if she can avoid it?
The whole article just seems like an unfocused attack on finance as a whole, whether the anger is justified or not.
I don't like throwing accusations around randomly, but I feel like people arguing FOR fees in this thread (which is really strange to see) are experiencing a strong case of "biting off the nose to spite the face".
The only defense for fees in the thread I see just seems to boil down to "well, if you think those fees are too much, then you probably would have been better off not trading", which just sounds like straight up gatekeeping of people who aren't wealthy or those who prefer to invest a bit more manually than just throwing all their cash in a mutual fund/etf once a month.
Because I think the point the naysayers are making is that $0 transaction fees are not actually a benefit.
I don't know what kind of data you are looking for in support of my point, but I think it is a net positive for a person when they get something for free instead of paying for it if the experience becomes unchanged otherwise.
I traded using platforms that required fees before RH, and those small transaction fees add up and make certain trading strategies straight up unviable, unless the amounts you trade are giant. For a small retail trader like me, it certainly has saved me a ton of money over time and allowed me to execute on trading strategies I simply couldn't before.
So, basically, the lack of transaction fees just opens up more opportunities for more people, without taking away anything from the rest. I count that as a net win.
While this is true, what RH have done is turn trading into a form of gambling. That industry is HEAVILY regulated, and for a good reason: gambling addiction has ruined enough families' lives to warrant strict - and increasingly invasive - responsible gambling controls.[ß]
One of the most effective controls we have for gambling guardrails is the absolute rule of not allowing anyone to bet on credit. Not only do we block credit card deposits, we also have to restrict depositing via methods that themselves allow funding through credit cards. RH, on the other hand, has taken fire for not only allowing margin trades, but making it all too easy for non-institutionals to:
A) trade on margin (read: bet on credit) - and
B) trade complex options where the downside can be multiples of the perceived execution amounts
A gambling company doing this would have their license revoked and likely have their directors hauled before regulators to answer some very uncomfortable questions.
> Buy-and-hold will almost always lead to returns, provided that a portfolio is diversified enough.
Also true. But please keep in mind that RH encourages its userbase to engage in back-and-forth trading, using design tricks and visual cues to trigger impulses.[0] A responsible retail investor executing a long-term trade for a few thousand every two months is not the customer Robinhood makes their money out of.
Stating the obvious: I work for a gambling company.
ß: I have a pending piece on the various privacy invasions our industry is forced to engage in, but the first versions did not sit well with our comms team.
0: Before his leave, Matt Levine wrote about RH dropping at least some of the worst aspects: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-08-10/robinh...
Let's get everyone in the market with small money, test what works for you with almost no money and then when you found your investment strategy, scale it.
Sounds like product development to me or do you think only people are allowed to code and "waste their lifetime" when they got x?
The problem is that it fundamentally misaligns incentives: while Robinhood makes money the more people transact (and is the reason its fee structure and UX incentivize transacting), it’s not in peoples’ financial best interest to transact as often as possible.
I bet Robinhood makes most of its money off order flow (it was founded by HFT traders, after all), while traditional brokers make more money off fees, reinvesting, upselling other products, etc.
When part of your service is to hold money, it's kinda the natural business model. Of course, this is not working out well for insurers in a world of very low interest rates (which is one of the reasons lots of insure-tech startups are getting funded now).
> Also, Robinhood’s compensation model differs from E-Trade and other firms. As an analysis by the investment bank Piper Sandler put it this summer, “Robinhood receives a fixed rate per spread (vs. a fixed rate per share by the other eBrokers).”
And it's not just a theoretical concern, the article states that Robinhood has already been fined for not executing orders at the best price.
Fentanyl is a great drug in the hands of trained professionals who know what they're doing. But it shouldn't be sold on the street to just anybody because it's exceptionally dangerous if you're not trained. Robinhood is giving away the digital equivalent of Fentanyl to everybody. This can only end in disaster.
Do you really use you Roth account for day-trading? I don't think it's what it is for.
> Robinhood is giving away the digital equivalent of Fentanyl to everybody.
Absolutely baseless claim. You can analogize anything to anything - that does not make them equal. Stock trading is in no way similar to a deadly drug. At least no more than any other activity that may be addictive to a small minority - like eating, drinking coffee, playing D&D, having sex or reading articles on the Internet about medieval armor making. None of it is Fentanyl.
Soon you find yourself in a community that helps you (in their own way) deal with your losses while promoting the next play. It also doesn't help that being in a bubble, the adage "stonks only go up" has been true since the March crash and meme stocks outperform and achieve extreme valuations against all conventional wisdom.
Robinhood is the shovel-seller that has undercut the other players with lower prices and lower barrier to entry and better UI. The Fed is the one pumping this asset bubble that keeps the narrative going: stocks only go up and fundamentals don't matter.
"They absolutely crush it" - No, they don't. Not even close.
Just for inversing, $7 trades are not a big deal, as others said (if it looks they are, stop trading as much). Also, free or super cheap trades encourage people to participate in zero-sum risky trading schemes (HFT, complex options, etc.) where they are at a big disadvantage against pros.
That said, I still see RH as a very useful thing. Many (most?) people starting to invest will try many stupid things and complex strategies and will lose a lot of money. Sometimes more than once before they learn not to do some things. Sim accounts seldom work for this -- the lessons require losing real money.
It is a lot better to lose $1k that you can ill afford to lose early in life than lose $100k that you can ill afford to lose later. My 2c.