Also supplements are mandatory to prevent a really large comedown period - the most important being alpha-liproic acid, to avoid neurotoxicity.
This is your threadly reminder to practice harm reduction if you plan to take neuro- and cardiotoxic drugs like MDMA =)
This is not at all to scaremonger - just to encourage people to always research things very carefully before they consume them. https://rollsafe.org/how-to-take-mdma/ is an excellent resource.
I've used it, had a great time, not much comedown, and would probably use it again, but I was cautious to follow all of the advice on https://rollsafe.org/how-to-take-mdma/ If you're popping moderate or large doses every few days as if it were Adderall, you're potentially risking the chance of long-term or permanent brain damage.
They are only recommended and it's usually preloading and not postloading.
The most common side effect on people with ASD is anxiety and difficulty concentrating, and on people with PTSD it's anxiety or depression. They happen in around 50% to 25% of the population and they also happen on people taking placebo. Here we are talking about people _with an actual serious mental condition_ that is leading to chronic social anxiety or dissociative episodes even when not under the influence of any drug.
That's all data from MAPS sponsored published research studies. I'm not sure where you got the idea that supplements are mandatory to prevent a really large comedown period, but I think you might have confused yourself from reading too much anecdotal data, or you have been lied to.
Data gathered from surveys on recreational users point out that depression happens only in something like 10% to 15% of the population but it's tricky to get conclusions from self reported studies.
That being said, ketamine__, I do agree with your general statement about some drug users thinking their use makes them smarter or wiser, it's a common indication of addiction though. Specially among people that are highly functional among society or in disciplines like engineering or the sciences.
There are NO large population scientific studies on MDMA usage. The scientific data that does exist absolutely supports supplementation. I am not a current user of MDMA, but I attribute an enormous amount of my personal growth to its occasional use in conjunction with therapy in my 20s.
Specially because just taking supplements to get the neurogenesis effects is shaky at best. Lifestyle changes are probably more important.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10619665/
Here is the basing study - and the neurotoxic effects of MDMA being metabolized to MDA in vitro are well documented:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2457659/
Yes - these are rat models. But it’s not like we are allowed to test for toxicity in humans at these levels.
Are you sure your sample for your conclusions on depression on the comedown is not biases by selection from a group that:
- Used recreationally
- Also took other drugs, like alcohol
- Didn't get good sleep after using, probably sleeping through daylight
Because the last two will cause depression even without MDMA use and it's well srablished by lots of studies. And of recreational use was done on a Friday or Saturday they could have been getting Sunday/Monday depression which is also well studied and normal in people with a day job...
The neurotoxicity of MDA in the amounts you metabolize after taking pure MDMA is not well established. We don't know how bad it is, it may be even less neurotoxic than a glass of wine.
I want more studies, certainly. IMO it has huge amounts of promise for getting people to emotionally open up and reconcile with themselves in a way therapy alone can be less effective.
Also to repeat myself, I did not say that people suffer from depression afterwards. Feeling “drained” is part and parcel of the experience of MDMA and supplementation absolutely reduces that negative side effect.
The two links you posted are studies from 30 years ago, on rats and looking at a very constrained amount of variables from a very simplified model of human brain chemistry.
And I'm restraining myself to studies because I don't want to sound like a drug apologist or speak about illegal drugs so openly on an account with my name. But I'm pretty sure that if you actually talk to whoever you know that has experience administering MDMA on communities for recreational or religious or whatever purposes and ask them for their numbers on "drainage" and "depression" you will be surprised. I really doubt that you actually have too much experience, and I'm 100% sure you have less experience than some actual MAPS psychs that administer this and do tell their patients that supplements are as effective as placebo and that depression happens to less than half of the patients. It's controversial that they would do that but honestly it's were the data points. Luckily.
If research evolves and we do discover that MDMA was more dangerous than we thought for mental health then that's a pity. Of we discover a diet of supplements that reduces the I'll effects that would be great, specially because the mechanisms by which it's believed MDMA causes depression are also present on many conditions so you would be striking gold here.
Matter of fact is I'm completely sure both academic and urban shamanistic knowledge point in the opposite direction of what you are saying.
I’m sorry to say that you’ve ignored the evidence I’ve already put forward and your “biases” are that I’m wrong and you’re right based on your feelings. Give me a source where MAPS scientists are saying supplements are as effective as placebo - you’ve just invented that.
I will give you one point - I believe that in a controlled environment that after effects of pure MDMA will not be as burdensome as someone dancing for 12 hours straight, and in fact are less about the MDMA itself and more about the other actions. I’ll still posit that neurotoxicity is a potential thing and therefore supplementation is advisable based on the studies I linked above.
Given however that are continuously stuck on the idea that I’m talking about “depression” and still use that word - I don’t even think you’re reading what I’m saying. Frankly, buzz off.
I read your studies and as other three other comments here say I don't really understand how they say supplements are necessary. They are old, on very simplified models that are no longer used in modern psychiatric or neuroscience research, and about brain chemistry effects on rats and not psychological effects on humans. There are a lot of studies with MDMA on humans now, and they point in a different direction. The type of research you are pointing to is what was used as an excuse among the scientific community for making it illegal in the first place.
Also I don't dispute it's neurotoxic, as most data points say it is. I'm just saying that the supplementation doesn't really help with that. Yeah they help with neurogenesis and so does meditation, eating healthy, learning a musical instrument, sleeping well, getting sunlight, etc... That doesn't mean it will "cancel out" or help with MDMA neurotoxicity particularly.
You are spreading new age pseudo-religious unverified magic cures for MDMA side-effects only that it's in the form of capsules instead of lifestyle changes. That's not bad, but it's what you are doing.
From what I understand, ALA is rather unstable and degrades quickly, so for accurate dosing using stablized r-ala.
Anyway, about 1000mg and you'll be in ketosis a couple hours later!
https://rollsafe.org/mdma-supplements/#alpha-lipoic-acid-ala
Yes, the above is a "community" site but there are not better sources as it has schedule-1 and not extensively studied. The sources for studies they use are the same that therapists working in MDMA therapy use to create their treatment plans. The entire point is harm reduction here.
The annoyance of many of studies about ALA is that they use ALA, not R-ALA, and since ALA is so unstable, I'd have to go through each study one by one to see what they did to account for that.
Ugh.
All that said, I'm guessing no one is trying to sell R-ALA for Keto since R-ALA seems to be rather expensive and most of the fake keto supplements are super low cost supplements with jacked up prices applied.
For more information look into "pre-loading" for MDMA experiences.
It is recommended as post-loading by psychiatrists but also based on their anecdotal experience with patients.
Prolonged use of 5-HTP will also cause heart problems, same reason fen-phen does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenfluramine/phentermine#Adver...
I don't know of any studies of exactly how much is needed to cause problems, before taking 5-htp one might want to look into that!
I am always rather concerned that 5-htp is available OTC, and is even added to energy drinks, when it is known to have such harmful effects.
This is not true at all.
Serotonin turnover in the brain is measured in hours, not days or weeks (Reference: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10543... ) 5-HTP also has a half-life of around 4 hours, so you're not going to have any 5-HTP or Serotonin build-up.
The rebound from drugs like MDMA isn't simply about "using up" your serotonin. When you take a drug and induce a huge spike of activity, the brain's negative feedback loops are put into overdrive in an attempt to steer things back to normal. When the drug leaves your system, it takes some time for these feedback loops to move back toward a more normal state. It's basically "paying back" the highs with some rebound lows.
It's possible that taking 5-HTP in the days after the drug could maybe counteract some of the lows, but it's not a magic bullet.