How will they be keeping talent? I heard workers in IT are paid low compared to other jobs and especially compared to similar jobs in North America, what stops them. from just going to US/Canada?
As an European working in a sector very close to the semiconductor industry my main reason is that I don't want to live in the US/Canada.
The US is very much a tale of two countries - but people here making a lot of money have a great quality of life.
I find the holier than thou attitude based on European insecurity quite entertaining. Europe is great - you don't have to denigrate other places. But don't doubt for a second how Europe got there - through colonial genocide.
I’m an American and my sentiments are based on watching what this country has done to my working class friends and family. I’m glad those things don’t happen to people in Europe.
> But not everyone agrees, and in our country, you have the right to disagree and vote for who you want.
Just about every parliamentary democracy in Europe is more representative than the American system and nowhere near as corrupt.
> But don't doubt for a second how Europe got there - through colonial genocide.
Quite familiar with that history, as well as our own of chattel slavery and the genocide of indigenous people.
US is a great place in many aspects for top 1%, but progressively crappy as you move down the scale. And even good-earning IT worker is one long-term debilitating illness/accident away from financial catastrophe. Let's not forget completely fucked up US university system.
Overall, when I was young and relatively naive, US seemed a great place to be. Now that I have kids and seen the world a bit, I see it as one of the alternatives (to say Australia and New Zealand, compared to Europe), but with way too many issues, high criminality, us-vs-them mentality. Also the very obvious class system based on income/wealth, we don't have it here so pronounced which I consider much healthier.
One last point - we europeans generally (maybe except for UK) strongly disagree with all wars US is waging in past 30 years or so. Deaths of millions, misery for hundreds of millions for generations to come, pure evil for very little good. There is no way around this if you work in US - your taxes are directly supporting this, everybody a little. We hear a lot about voting with our money - well not living there is also that kind of vote. Passive resistance if you want.
The US isn't perfect. But the idea that it is this lawless wasteland that is terrible is just flat out wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
combined with that "one illness/accident away from the catastrophe."
From the outside, America does not portray itself to be a particularly stable or desirable place to live.
In reality different people have different priorities, so no single country ever can be "the best", as that solely depends on the individual priorities.
It's also not like RT and Xinhua are making up the stuff they use to agitate against the US, like most propaganda it's usually based on at least a kernel of truth.
For example the US incarceration rate is a pretty blatant outlier, particularly among developed countries, a factual reality that clashes very harshly with the self-propagandized idea of "Country of the free". The regular "race riots" in the US, and their scale, are a clear indicator to still unresolved issues on that end.
Disregarding these as "It's only Russian/Chinese propaganda!" is exactly the kind of mindset that leaves these issues unresolved and tolerated as "normal".
[0] https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/14/u-s-repeals-propaganda-...
[1] https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?N...
> From the outside, America does not portray itself to be a particularly stable or desirable place to live.
In your opinion.
Basing anything on the horror stories will make you think everything is bad. Many americans think Europe is a communist hell hole where people steal your money through taxes overrun by islamists.
Again, it's better to be rich in the USA than in Europe, but it's way worse to be poor.
We consider roads to be "free", but with the understanding that we do pay for it in the end through taxes.
Do folks not understand how taxes work?
It is just, that when you are employed, your employer has to pay it. When you freelance or are a student, or unemployed you definitely have to pay for it. But in a nice way, based on your income.
But even if you have no income, you still have to pay for health insurance(lowest fee). I know that quite well from some time ago. You also cannot just quit health insurance, as long as you life in germany.
I guess if someone can suffer the US' shitty conditions, I guess there's nothing stopping them from going there... except for the US's stringent immigration policies. Can't just hop over the pond to go work there, and I'm fairly sure it's easier for a US citizen to work here than the other way around.
Of course, that too is deincentivized thanks to US tax laws (still having to pay income taxes even though you don't live or work in the US).
So crap, that people around the world are fighting to get in, what for those jobs that pay 2-3x, and real exciting projects to work on, and for the most part people that actually don't care about your funny accent.
It's unwise to discount one of the US's fundamental, perennial and systematic advantages as somehow a drawback.
Like it or not - the US has been sucking in global talent since it's inception.
Net migration to the US from the richer EU countries is about 0, i.e. about the same number of US citizens are moving into the EU as are moving from those EU countries into the US.
This is a misunderstanding. 'Wealthy' people tend to not migrate anywhere, even America.
Amazingly talented and hard working Asians are coming to America in droves, which is a massive source of competitive wellbeing.
Google, Microsoft, Adobe etc. filling up the ranks with E. and SE. Asians at maybe 33% of their staff in SV for example.
Not true. 10-17% of Canadian, British, Australian, and Swiss scientists move to the US. (https://np.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/37lgxg/the_...) These are percentages of all researchers, whether they emigrate anywhere or not. (By contrast, only 5% of US scientists leave theiir country.)
Among the general population, there are 824,000 Britons living in the US, compared to 159,000 Americans living in Britain. Given that the US's population is about five times that of Britain's, that means that on a per-capita basis a Briton is 25 times more likely to move to the US than an American is to move to Britain.
Of course fewer Europeans migrate to the US than in the 19th and early 20th centuries, or compared to Latin American countries today, but they still come and the net flows are still considerably in the US's favor. There are 1.2 million German-born people living in the US, for example, versus only 150,000 American-born people living in Germany, although the US has four times Germany's population. Sweden and Norway? 15,000 Americans in each, compared to 54,000 Swedes and 36,000 Norwegians in the US. Sweden has 10 million people—the size of Los Angeles County—so there would have to be 1.62 million Americans living there to match those going the other way on a per-capita basis. There are 49,000 Swiss born in the US, compared to 24,000 American born in Switzerland. The US's population is about 37 times larger, so a Swiss is 75 times more likely to move to the US than the other way around. There are 71,000 people born in Austria living in the US compared to 7,700 Americans in Austria, implying that an Austrian is more than 300 times (!) more likely to move to the US.
Same with non-European countries; for example, 945,000 Canadians in the US versus 279,000 Americans in Canada. Since the US's population is nine times that of Canada's, on a per-capita basis a Canadian is 27 times more likely to move to the US than the other way around. Yes, the US has a nicer climate than Canada, but this is consistent with other Anglosphere countries; 75,000 Australians and 26,000 New Zealanders are in the US compared to 54,000 Americans in Australia and 13,000 in New Zealand, respectively, so on a per-capita basis Australians are about 20 times more likely to move to the US and New Zealanders an amazing 140 times. Etc., etc.
(All data comes from Migration DRC (http://www.migrationdrc.org/research/typesofmigration/global... see table 4. Military forces are excluded. A less-detailed graphical version (http://migrationsmap.net/#/USA/arrivals) is also available.)
See the line chart at about the middle of the page, with three lines in black, blue and red. The chart shows net migration Germany <> USA. The red line shows German citizens only, black shows people formerly living in Germany, but without German citizen status. In 1998 there was peak in emigration to the US, but from then on the trend moves towards net immigration from the US.
I'd love to look at your data, but that migration DRC link points to an apparently empty wordpress instance.
Thank you for pointing me to the document. The entire press release is a marvel of sophistry. From its first sentence ("Das Ergebnis der 59. Präsidentschaftswahl der Vereinigten Staaten am 3. November wird mit Spannung erwartet") to the later claim that "Seit 2017 ziehen mehr Personen von den USA nach Deutschland als umgekehrt", is the federal statistics office's communications office trying its best to claim that "Orange Man Bad so fewer Germans are moving to the US" without actually using Trump's name or, more importantly, with data actually supporting the claim. Most people are going to only read the headline and perhaps the first paragraph, and not see that the US hasn't been the most popular destination for German emigrants since 2004, so the recent trend is not a result of the Trump presidency. The US is still the third most popular destination as of 2019, only behind two German-speaking countries; it is ahead of every other country, including the UK and other countries that Germans can move to easily because of the EU and Schengen. Rather than Trump, it looks like the trend is a return to the pre-1990 norm. (More on this later.)
Regarding the chart you mentioned, the black line is presumably mostly Yugoslavian War refugees who used Germany as a stopover to get to the US (thus the late 1990s peak) and would not be applicable in showing native Germans' intent regarding moving to the US.
The red line does not show a recent trend toward "net migration from the US" (impling more Americans moving to Germany than German citizens moving to the US) but that, as the text says, recent population flows between Germany (German citizens) and the US have been almost even in gross terms. This is a reversion to the pre-1991 norm, as opposed to something unprecedented. Further, given that the US has about four times as many people as Germany, this implies that a random German citizen today is about four times more likely to move to the US than an American is to move to Germany.
Of course, these flows are not necessarily permanent; most are likely students, or workers on temporary assignments. Obtaining ciitzenship is a more meaningful indicator of interest. In 2019 4,745 German-born people obtained US citizenship while 1,205 Americans obtained German citizenship. This implies that a random German citizen today is 16 times more likely to obtain US citizenship than an American is to obtain German citizenship.
Further, 75% of those Americans obtaining German citizenship in 2019 do not live in Germany but are taking advantage of the right of return (encouraged, from 2006, by the German Citizenship Project (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Citizenship_Project)), while the US does not have a similar law. Only about 300 of Americans obtaining German citizenship actually lived in Germany. This implies that a random German citizen today is 48 times more likely to obtain US citizenship and to move to the US, than an American is to obtain German citizenship.
>I'd love to look at your data, but that migration DRC link points to an apparently empty wordpress instance.
Sorry; didn't realize that the domain had expired. The version 4 I mentioned of the dataset is now at http://www.sussex.ac.uk/Units/SCMR/drc/research/typesofmigra....
Here is the raw data: https://www-genesis.destatis.de/genesis/online?operation=abr...
And: I dont' have an axe to grind here, I just objected to the notion that there is mass emigration from the EU to the USA, because I remembered the numbers for Germany.
What makes meaningful comparison of the numbers nontrivial are differing definitions.
Basis of the graphs are permanent movements away from or to Germany, so students and temp work are not included - https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Bevoel... (sorry, everything German only).
Citizenship is probably a problematic category because it is quite hard to achieve citizenship in Germany. There a millions of persons being born in Germany that don't have citizenship. Compared to the USA, Germany has an essentially racist basis here, though it has been made easier in recent years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis).
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and...
First, you admit that "you and everyone you know" live in Europe. Perhaps consider not making sweeping generalizations about places that neither you nor anyone you know live.
Second, the many US States are far from perfect, as are the many EU member nations, but conditions in the US in general are hardly "shitty."
Other's have pointed out the extraordinary number of immigrants to the US -- there are more immigrants living in the US (40M) than citizens of Poland (38M)[1]. Those are normal people making intelligent, reasoned, self-interested decisions. They didn't leave their homes behind for a downgrade.
But more to the point, generalizing "conditions in the US" is utter foolishness. The US is very much like the EU v0. In the same way that my time living Italy didn't give me a great deal of insight into life in Belgium, a stay in New York City doesn't tell you very much about life in Idaho, or almost any other place in the US. The states are highly autonomous by design, and life experiences vary widely between them.
Yes, New York and San Francisco in particular are having a hard time due to acute housing crises, and some other cities are dealing with housing issues to a lesser extent. Yes, healthcare here is a problem if you don't have insurance.
But fortunately, the majority of the country is not SF or NY, and 92% of people have health insurance[2].
1: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/08/20/key-finding... 2: https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2020/demo/p60-27...
I read the GP as asking “how will the EU stop the people leaving when they prefer to work elsewhere,” which implies that most people are moving for personal preference reasons rather than jobs. I doubt that is the case - I suspect that most humans would prefer to have both an elite job and their family relatively nearby, thus keeping talent locally is pretty easy if you have elite jobs to offer.
But since the GP didn’t elaborate on why they think people are leaving it’s difficult to argue about the posters intentions.
Also, that the US accepts more immigrants is not an argument for its inherent superiority, especially given how vilified and abused they've been in the past four years. All it means is that there are countries worse than the US, or that better ones have more restrictive immigration policies.
I don't mean to take away from anything else you've said, but that statistic is incredibly misleading. It specifically states 92% were insured for at least part of 2019. It also ignores the quality and effectiveness of the insurance.
https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2...
> In the first half of 2020, 43.4 percent of U.S. adults ages 19 to 64 were inadequately insured.
> The adult uninsured rate was 12.5 percent. In addition, 9.5 percent of adults were insured but had a gap in coverage in the past year and 21.3 percent were underinsured.
> A quarter of those who were continuously insured and did not meet the threshold for underinsurance also reported problems paying bills.
> People who reported problems paying medical bills experienced lingering financial problems including damage to their credit ratings and depleted savings.
Some people enjoy that of course. I do find the working environment better in the US, and I enjoy my work, but on most other parameters it’s inferior.
>Your headline salary in the US is higher but disposable income is often lower
Even rough napkin math doesn't check out here. Let's say you are a senior engineer in Bay Area/SF (one of the most expensive places to live in the US, so I am not going for some outliers like Austin or Seattle where the math ends up being even more in favor of the employee), and you make $300k/yr total comp at one of the big tech companies (which isn't even that good for a senior engineer at Google/Netflix/Dropbox/Uber/etc., this is rather a low end of the comp at that level at those companies, https://levels.fyi has a pretty accurate data on compensation that matches with what I've seen in real life myself). I used one of the online calculators to see how much you take home after taxes in CA (https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-paycheck-calculator#...), it came out to around $7.5k semi-monthly or $15k/mo.
So you get $15k in cash every month after taxes. Let's say you want to live on your own in a new really nice 1bd apartment in the middle of the city. I will overestimate and say that you will pay $5k/mo on rent+utilities. After all of that, you got $10k left. Let's say you spend $2k/mo on food and other various random small expenses (again, overestimating here for the sake of the argument, realistically you will spend much less on both food and housing). After all of that you got $8k of disposable income left, and that's while living a very good quality of life (most engineers I know in Bay Area who make that much don't spend even nearly this much on housing and normal expenses btw, they are putting it in savings/401k/etc. in hopes of retiring early and such). Employer-provided insurance is usually amazing. My personal one is fully paid for by employer, and my out of pocket yearly maximum is $2.5k (so even in the worst case scenario, I won't ever spend more than that in a calendar year on health expenses). Also, most of the people in senior positions at those companies I listed make noticeably more than $300k/mo.
I guess the bottom line is, is there even a way in EU to have $8k+/mo of disposable income as an IC software dev? How difficult is it to make it happen? From my experience in the Bay Area and Seattle, it isn't the easiest thing on earth, and not everyone in those places makes that much, but it is far from "special" or rare.
At $45,284 the US has the highest household net disposable income per capita in the OECD (http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/united-states/), where "disposable income" (http://stats.oecd.org/glossary/detail.asp?ID=46) accounts for healthcare and government benefits.
- US specifically starts to feel weird for non US citizens
- There are immigration laws
Besides that I think some people from US might be biased on the feeling of Europe towards US. If you just know Europeans living in US you will have a wrong perception, mostly because Europeans living in US are here because they want to do so not because they were forced to move.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report
- http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/life-satisfaction/
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where-to-be-born_Index
- https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.j...
While none of these rankings are perfect they show clear trend that some of the European countries are doing better than US.
Also you should keep in mind that money is not everything. (Which is why we have the above stats anyway). People have friends and family and a way of life that they might not be willing to abandon. As other have mentioned before migration to US is non-trivial and requires quite and effort. In contrast to that you can move much easier within EU. Which is what is happening anyway - if you want high salary you go to Switzerland / London / Paris or any other high income area and you can do so without being treated as an immigrant.
Don't be so quick to assume that people want to move to and live in US/Canada.
Eg. in France if you make 60-80k and live anywhere other than Paris you're doing great.
For the top end of talent there's always freelancing, with a different, higher band of earning levels.
Except that how many devs outside of Paris make 60-80k?
Most French engineers I met in Germany left France because of low wages outside of Paris which is so expensive that most of your wage gains evaporate anyway unless you have a baller job in finance or management consulting.
I think it’s also getting better as all employers need to compete on salaries with remote offers from companies in Paris.
I’ll admit it though, if it was not for the ludicrous immigration laws I’d have probably moved to the Bay Area a long time ago.
That's kind of a catch-22 right there.
If it weren't for those "ludicrous immigration laws", tech salaries in the Bay Area would get watered down significantly while becoming even more expensive to live in, making the whole place less attractive to emigrate to over time, eventually reaching a state of equilibrium with wages probably close to EU level.
Think of it like a fancy nightclub. The more exclusive it is, the more people are willing to queue outside for hours for a chance to get in.
One guy I'm close with, and we've talked about our salaries.
I make 200k My friend in Europe makes 30k.
The difference is astounding.
And yes, there is this particular kind of people who feel offended by this. Largely the same people who get offended by gay marriage. Why should we care?
people might get offended because you are wrong.
Also, if you take median salary in software industry, which is probably closer to $65k, in my country it buys you much better lifestyle than 200k in the Bay Area does. Me, for example, I was able to buy 2 bedroom, 900 sq ft apartment in the capital city with cash, no mortgage required. Other expenses don't really register on my radar. I'm piling up cash for early retirement.
EDIT: fixed some of my numbers.
EDIT2: After my country joined EU I never emigrated to Western Europe, because it didn't make financial sense to me. If I ever find myself emigrating to California, that would be because of the weather, not money.
Just ask anyone living in Munich for example, how much a house there costs (almost 4 Million Euros[0]) and what the typical dev wages there look like, but sit down first so you don't fall down.
Average property price in Munich is basically the same as in the Bay Area (aprox. $10k/square meter in both cities with Munich reaching up to $35K/square meter in the desirable areas[0]!!!), but salaries are half that at best.
[0]https://www.ft.com/content/9ba4873a-60f3-11e9-9300-0becfc937...
For the US, the thing that stops them is the incredibly hard immigration process. The US is a very protectionist labour market. I've looked into it myself as a Greek, and it's very fucking hard.
you want researchers, and EU has ton of them ;)
None of this is even close to true.
What are you smoking that leads you to believe non-Silicon Valley US IT salaries are comparable to Chinese ones?
It'll be a stepping stone toward getting a job at the big players.
At best, they'll keep the B players around because they won't pass the stricter bar for immigration.