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Comment by drivebyacct2 | Hacker News Reader

That sounds a bit more tin-foiley. That would require modifications to firmware and phone software that would require direct cooperation from a lot more parties. It would also be relatively easy to discover (vs snooping of traffic that is out of your control).

(edit) Thanks for all the info. I hadn't heard as much about this stuff.

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Actually it isn't. There's been documented evidence if this very thing being carried our in at least 1 large case[1][2][3]. I'm actually sure there's been some exploits in the wild that have even been presented at Blackhat before, but I can't locate the links properly right now; on the iPhone.

[1] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_listening_device

[2] http://news.cnet.com/2100-1029-6140191.html

[3] http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/12/remotely_eaves...

The documented evidence is from a case in 1996. According to the article:

Some handsets can't be fully powered down without removing the battery; for instance, some Nokia models will wake up when turned off if an alarm is set.

I'm not so sure that this is still a common practice for modern phones.

It isn't a modern phone, but I remember my Nokia 2600 (not Classic) doing that.

My couple months old Nokia C7 does this (but I'm more grateful for the convenience than worried about covert tapping devices..)

As far as I'm aware all modern phones will at least partially wake up to sound an alarm even when turned off/

Does the iPhone/Android phones do this?

"Wake up"??

If my Android phone is off, it's off. It doesn't turn itself on, period. If it's just idle, screen off, with lots of stuff asleep, sure it will "wake up" in that the screen turns on, and sound an alarm. But that's it.

That's generally what's meant by "wake up." This would seem to indicate the phone's not really "off," though I couldn't say how possible it is to tap into the mic in this state.

That is not true at all for Android. Ask any Android developer. it is entirely possible to code an alarm callback that will not activate the screen at all, but can use a network to send and recieve data.

This is done commonly by builtin services.

The iPhone alarms do not work when the phone is turned off. If you've muted your phone this also means that all alarms are muted too.

May be useful in business surroundings, but this makes the iPhone an awfully bad travel alarm.

Mute doesn't silence alarms on the iPhone, however the volume control does work. 0% and you won't wake up.

Oops, you're right, they do work when your iPhone is muted.

Blackberries do this.

My really cheap Nokia will do this, even if the battery is dead enough that the phone won't turn on normally.

> That would require modifications to firmware and phone software that would require direct cooperation from a lot more parties.

Telecom companies don't exactly have a history of protecting our privacy and standing up to its abuse by law enforcement agencies.

And then I would guess it is probably one of those things that is possible in theory but probably not happening necessarily, just because there are other ways, and it is just more of a hassle to modify, upload and patch the firmware on a wide variety of cell phones. Maybe if it is a very high profile case ...

> It would also be relatively easy to discover (vs snooping of traffic that is out of your control).

Well it depends. If it is a GSM phone, it could betray the fact that it is transmitting when it is supposed to be 'off' if you suddenly hear those characteristic clicks when that phone is near a set of computer speakers for example. Otherwise you could, I guess, notice that battery life has suddenly decreased considerably. Besides those things, what other methods could an average consumer use to determine if this is happening?

>notice that battery life has suddenly decreased considerably

This here is the key thing. I know that when the phone sitting in front of me is off, it is off because when I turn it back on it has no idea what time it is and I don't have cell reception here. If it's not even running a clock, it (trivially) can't be running GPS, and other stuff is fairly unlikely.

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1029_3-6140191.html

Be sure to use real tin foil, not the inferior aluminum kind.

In 2006 is when I first read about it: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1029_3-6140191.html

I have only heard bits and pieces since then and have not followed up.

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