Comment by folli | Hacker News Reader

Comment by folli | Hacker News Reader

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I have to agree with this assessment. The opinion provided by /u/Shacklz is unfortunately rather widespread in Switzerland and mostly based on some outdated views on the role of the army ("plausible during the height of the cold war").

As Switzerland's strategic reserve, the army has a broad array of tasks, ranging from support in low threat levels (current example: preparing for the storage and distribution of Covid vaccines), supporting the police (example: World Economic Forum) to high threat levels (where tanks and artillery are needed, so this is also being trained for).

In the end, the Swiss Army is the Swiss Army knife for Switzerland's national security. Articles like this one that talk about defunct bunkers that were built for a very specific cold war scenario (but again: are now decommissioned) naturally don't really help.

Furthermore, the 'bottomless barrel' also completely misses the mark, as Switzerland's military expenditure is very low (around 0.7% of the GDP, NATO benchmark is around 2% for comparison).

> mostly based on some outdated views on the role of the army

And this is where we differ - I think _your_ opinion is outdated ;) The services that you listed mostly do not require an "army", what exactly is camouflage gear & combat training good for with regards to helping with covid-related tasks (or any other "Katastrophenhilfe"-related endeavour)?

The "Swiss army knife" metaphor is exactly what I so despise about the Swiss army; it's their excuse for essentially being an eternal "Pfadilager" for adults. Actual participation in conflicts mentioned by GP aren't an option anyway thanks to Switzerland's neutrality.

Luckily, it seems the trend is clearly in my opinion's favor, as was evident once again with the results of the last referendum on fighter jets - the pro-army-folks are a dying breed, it is just a matter of time until the 'Wehrpflicht' is finally abolished (I estimate it takes another ~20 years or so until the cold war era generation starts to become a minority), and when that happens, it's just a matter of time until the rest of the army gets to boot too, as all the nostalgia-driven sentiments towards it will not exist anymore (currently, put 10 Swiss men in a room, and it will take at most half an hour until their army experience becomes a topic).

And you know what? It'll be for the better of the world, and Switzerland especially. Finally, we will be able to say "We do not participate in this barbarian head smashing anymore, we're civilized folks"; someone needs to make the start and Switzerland is in the best position to do so. We're already not participating anyway; but we're still training generation after generation to do so; and this needs to stop eventually. My hope is that this will be the case in the next 20-30 years or so, I wouldn't mind if it was earlier ;)

Si vis pacem, para bellum. "If you want peace, prepare for war"

I am not Swiss so my opinion might not matter to you but I would say that there are many skills that are taught with military service that help out in other circumstances. Organization, mindfulness and the ability to give and receive orders.

>currently, put 10 Swiss men in a room, and it will take at >most half an hour until their army experience becomes a >topic

What is wrong with having something that is common across generations and backgrounds that allows people to connect with each other?

In my opinion we should train people to have many skills or better put:

>A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an >invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, >write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, >comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act >alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch >manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight >efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. > >-Robert A. Heinlein

> Si vis pacem, para bellum. "If you want peace, prepare for war"

This quote is so out of date, really. Humanity progressed so far just in the last couple of decades, but we're still supposed to prepare ourselves to smash each others heads in like we're some brutish barbarians? At some point, we should start acting like civilized adults and solve our conflicts by discussion, not by smashing each others head in.

The things you mentioned with regards to skills and such - you're right, but you don't need to have training on the weapon and such. The army teaches you ultimately death and destruction; everything else is just a means to that end. After all, if it truly were about the skills you mentioned, we could just have an obligatory boy scout camp instead and learn all the stuff without the barbaric parts, no?

I look at how the world around me seems more polarized and divided with every passing day and I find I am unable to agree with you that we have progressed far.

But I do agree with you on the point that the training does not need to be with weapons, I would rather have some sort of mandatory Civilian Conservation Corp program than military service program.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Conservation_Corps

> I am not Swiss so my opinion might not matter to you but I would say that there are many skills that are taught with military service that help out in other circumstances.

Being Swiss, and having served in the army, I have a less optimistic view of its value. In particular, the professional officers it attracted tended to be mediocre at best.

> Organization, mindfulness

Armies in general have poor cost control, and an army at perpetual peace has even fewer repercussions to fear, so there is virtually no accountability. Your workforce can't quit because it's drafted, parliament sometimes gives you a higher budget than you asked for, because reasons, and you perennially plan for fictional wars that thankfully you never have to fight.

> and the ability to give and receive orders.

It's easy to give orders if your workforce can't quit and goes to prison if they don't follow the orders.

> What is wrong with having something that is common across generations and backgrounds that allows people to connect with each other?

This aspect, that (mostly) men of all backgrounds served together, was maybe the one positive thing about the army. But nowadays, a smaller part of each generation serves, so that seems to go away as well. And it should be possible to implement a common service for other purposes than an army.

I do think that mandatory service does not a good army make, I would rather have a mandatory Civilian Conservation Corps program that trained people in basic skills & trades as well as being a common experience for people to fall back on.

The recent vote to buy expensive planes confirms many swiss and myself included in the opinion that efficient defense capabilities clearly is not the national focus. There were two main points in support of planes:

- policing the skies

- radar tech

As for policing, I'm quite sure many swiss would prefer to have 2-3 high-speed unarmed exploratory planes instead. Wanna shoot down the offender? Just a single missile base in the center of the country would do the trick more efficienty and for cheap. As for radar tech, we could most certainly have a better and cheaper solution adapted to our country by just asking for it at ETHZ or EPFL. We are not Russia or the USA. Our country is minuscule.

Just remembering the recent scandals with the israeli drones and the useless command software that cost tens of millions while we have degrading education, postal and healthcare systems makes me furious. And I'm far from the only one.

Fuck the army.

> Just a single missile base

What could go wrong?

Even 10 missile bases would still be cheaper than the planes we bought.

Now what could go wrong with limitless military spending, you might ask? Easy: it's called "the USA". I've been there, and I don't want to go back.

Missile bases are just sitting ducks that are waiting to be destroyed before the real attack... Look at the Karabach, The nice S300 anti-airplane system was obliterated at the start of the war with cheap drones. (even the anti-drones systems were destroyed by drones)

In opposition to our 25 fighter planes piloted and commanded by greenhorns who have never seen a real conflict. Those will make quick work of the invader.

This is laughable. Swiss armed forces have their justification in policing or counterterrorism. Not defense against actual whole armies.

I'd rather have good hospitals and schools, thank you very much.

Can I ask, what country is expected to invade Switzerland?

> Missile bases are just sitting ducks that are waiting to be destroyed before the real attack...

And so are your airbases, and aircrafts on "blind" patrol to low observable, ground hugging targets.

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