Hacker News Reader

Comment by ThatGeoGuy | Hacker News Reader

Author here: I think this reply and the reply by AnthonyMouse in another sub-thread [1] nail it.

I'd also add that just because you don't want to buy Chinese products != Buy USA made products. There are a vast number of other countries that would jump at the notion of becoming your supply chain, and don't necessarily have all the ethical grievances of supporting China.

I actually think my main objection though had nothing to do with "buying Chinese goods" vs. "not buying Chinese goods." Mainly: why would you buy a $2k smartphone that is grossly overpriced and isn't really providing much more than the base model? As the above comment here says, it should really be closer to "few screws inserted in USA" than "Made in USA."

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25339390

View on HN

> As the above comment here says, it should really be closer to "few screws inserted in USA" than "Made in USA."

This is simply wrong: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa/. Mainboard PCB, Mainboard PCBA, Electronics, Modem PCB etc. are produced in USA. All Purism devices are assembled in USA, but this one is actually made in USA.

Because you have to start somewhere and by paying $2k today for a few screws inserted in the USA you hopefully prove the demand for full manufacturing to be supplied in the USA. And hopefully not just in the USA, centralising the entire worlds manufacturing capacity in one region is not particularly anti-fragile.

The problem is scale though. The market today for the Librem 5 is... a handful of Linux nerds and privacy purists?

It seems fine as a statement piece if you're a big company willing to put your wallet on the line, it means a lot less if you're Purism and you need to stay focused in order to do it. And I will argue again: you could probably do this for vastly cheaper than $1999 even in the States. If anything it hurts this more, since people will look at this as an example and say, "Well, I'm not paying $2000 for something like that, guess USA manufacturing is dead since they can't produce good hardware at reasonable prices."

It's only ~2.5x the cost of the Made in China version. I'm intrigued that you think it could be done for less?

Given that no one currently is and that the average salary in the US appears to be about double the average in China - that seems about right?

> Given that no one currently is and that the average salary in the US appears to be about double the average in China - that seems about right?

An experienced factory worker (5-7+ years) with professional training, certifications, and clean track record costs at least 15k CNY a month in salary, and 6-10k more in pension/insurance/other social payments.

Factory workers in US get how much now?

> An early career Factory Worker with 1-4 years of experience earns an average total compensation of $13.28 based on 228 salaries. A mid-career Factory Worker with 5-9 years of experience earns an average total compensation of $14.17 based on 91 salaries.

Wow. I'm really surprised it got anywhere near that close.

Where are those numbers coming from?

A line manager working near a top city might get that... that's about the same as an engineer with a couple years experience makes. A high level engineer might expect 30k per month. Foxconn pays about 12k per month for non-technical managers with 3-5 years experience.

If you are a technician who assembles parts you are probably getting a salary between 3500 - 8000 RMB per month (+ social insurance payments if you work for a nicer/bigger employer). Maybe as much as 12,000 if you have advanced skills, but usually at that point you would be managing people as well.

US ones from there: https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Factory_Worker/Hour...

Chinese, from my own knowledge of contract manufacturing. While saying this, I mean that it is not necessarily that all of workers are hired at such seniority level, and, yes, most of them will be seniormost workers on their line.

Foxconn, Flextronics, Pegatron — those companies are completely out of this league, they focus on the bottom line only, and do not work in markets where professional staff on the line matters.

One of our own manufacturing contractors who specialises on things including automotive assemblies for Germans (they did some of the new S-Klasse electronics,) and medical devices has such workers, and they do go through all the problem retaining them.

Out of other high end contract manufacturers, GoerTek had particularly good prices, and quality level despite them being somewhat volume oriented, but shame, they dropped all non-audio business as of late. Same was for LuxShare, after they got Apple's business, it became impossible to get through to them.

Some companies with own manufacturing also been known for well paid line workforce, BuBuGao, and Huawei instantly come to mind.

The people doing the final assembly of the Librem 5 USA are working in Purism's Fulfillment Center in Carlsbad, California, which is a suburb of San Diego. Housing is very expensive in the San Diego area, so we are talking about wages for assembly workers that are much higher than $13 or $14 per hour. It sounds like the company making the PCB's is also located in the San Diego area (based on what Purism said about its Librem 5 DevKit), which means that Purism is paying a company that likely makes prototype boards, which means that Purism is paying a lot more for its boards than Chinese mass production prices. I doubt that Purism has more than a couple hundred orders for the Librem 5 USA, but it says that it will store the parts for the phone and do the final assembly itself. It also is doing just-in-time manufacturing of the phone in very small quantities. All of this has very high unit costs.

Frankly, ThatGeoGuy's assessment of the Librem 5 USA is ridiculous. First of all, he doesn't evaluate what it costs to set up a facility in a San Diego suburb that stores parts with supply chain security, orders small-scale PCBA production, and does small-scale final assembly. Second, he ignores the fact that the Librem 5 USA is a niche product for corporate and government clients who need supply chain security. It is competing with products like the Silent Circle's Silent Phone, Motorola Solutions' LEX L11 and Bittium's Tough Mobile 2. The only one of those phones which publicly lists its price is the Bittium Tough Mobile 2, which costs €1550 (US$1816), so the Librem 5 USA is in the same price range. Third, he totally ignores the cost of paying roughly a dozen developers to work for 3.3 years to develop a Linux phone. How does a company recover those high development costs that have gone way over budget? One way is to develop a side product with high profit margins that caters to niche customers with specialized needs.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com