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Comment by avianlyric | Hacker News Reader

My go to answer to questions like this is pretty simple.

We shouldn’t punish the majority for the indiscretions of the few.

Ultimately some people will abuse sick leave, just like everything else in life. But those individuals should be dealt with on a individual basis.

Otherwise you just end up treating everyone like a criminal, at which point for an individual there’s no advantage to not engaging in abusive behaviour. You’re already effectively being punished for potential abusive behaviour, might as well make the most of it and actually engage in the abusive behaviour you’re being punished for.

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Who are we punishing here, though? If we gave everyone all their days off in one pool then all the days could be used. Having the extra rules about sick vs personal just benefits the company. EDIT: I guess we are saying that the company benefits if you are not sick, and the healthy people don't get more days off than sick people.

For people who would have trouble managing their time, like an illness late in the year, just allow a bunch of days to be rolled over to be used before the end of the next year.

But it's not a pool of sick days + personal days, with the "sick" days only available to you if you are sick. I imagine the situation in Norway is pretty similar to that in Netherlands, where if you're sick, you're sick- and beyond a certain point you are obliged to consult a doctor. Time management plays no role.

I'm not sure if I follow. In some jobs workers are given 20 PTO days to use as sick or vacation as they please. In other jobs workers are give 10 vacation days and 10 sick days.

I was saying that it seems better to have the PTO days to use however you want than sick days that aren't supoosed to be used for non-sickness reasons.

Are you saying that it is normal for people to use the sick days when they are not really sick?

You mention needing to consult a doctor at a certain point. This is not uncommon in the U.S., with the employer wanting a doctor's note after more than two days of absence. (As an aside I always thought that was a burden on the employee, to have to pay for a doctors visit because the employer doesn't trust them. Not as big a deal if the employer would pay for the visit, but they don't. Certainly not a perfect world we live in...)

You are comparing 20 vs 10 + 10 if you're sick. In most of Europe it would however have been 20 + whatever you need if sick. Or probably more than 20.

> In some jobs workers are given 20 PTO days to use as sick or vacation as they please. In other jobs workers are give 10 vacation days and 10 sick days.

To compare, this is how I have it, in Slovakia:

* 35 days paid vacation -- by law

* sick days as much as needed, with doctor's note -- by law

* 6 sick days without doctor's note -- company benefit

There is a limit for the extra sick days, that you can't take more than 2 in a row. You usually take them if you hope that the sickness will be over in a day or two, for example if you get a cold on Friday; or if for some reason you do not want to visit the doctor during the first day of sickness, perhaps because that's when you feel worst.

>In some jobs workers are given 20 PTO days to use as sick or vacation as they please. In other jobs workers are give 10 vacation days and 10 sick days.

That may indeed be the case in the US. In the scenario I'm describing, you only have vacation days. If you are sick, then this is altogether separate from your vacation days. There is no calculation or concept of using your vacation days if you are ill, or calling in sick as some form of vacation when not actually sick...at least not structurally. In some countries, if you are sick on your vacation day you even get your vacation days back!

In what way is it better for the employee to have a fixed pool of days that illness can cut into, compared to having a fixed pool of days that is truly and only yours for vacation (while not sick!)?

Maybe from the employer's perspective, costs are lower. But fortunately these are settled matters of employment regulation in Europe, and workers' well-being has been a focus.

>have to pay for a doctors visit

Indeed it's not a perfect world...no one has to pay for this in Europe.

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