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Comment by Afton | Hacker News Reader

Interesting that they didn't really touch on what I consider the hardest part of buying for someone: domain expertise.

If I am known as 'into' something, then the likelihood that someone who isn't also into that same thing will come up with a good gift is shockingly low. I bake bread, for example. A book of 100 bread recipes is basically dead weight to me. I have a friend who is really into knives of various sorts. Even though I'm happy to drop a couple of hundred dollars on a gift (they've been super generous to me in the past), I'm not able to pull the trigger because I feel like the facebook-ad-quality-knives are almost certainly not what they would value.

Although... I suppose the point of the article on this point is that if I just asked my friend, they would receive the value of the gift (since I would just be proxying the purchase for my friend, and gifting them the cash). So my refusal to do so is just me maximizing for my own selfish gift-giving goals. Interesting.

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Since I know about knives, I would buy them a knife.

If I was an accomplished bread baker, I would give them a couple of loaves each week for a month -- unless I knew they had a dietary issue.

Don't buy a book about programming for a programmer; do buy the best book on programming in Python for a kid who shows interest.

You can, but if you consider knives an uninteresting kitchen tool, then you have just given them a $300 knife that they will feel bad about every time they use it open a can of beans.

btw: if you do know about knives, please hit me up at my email address and let me pick your brain a bit.

[Edit: my email address wasn't in my profile. fixed, but I'll reach out to folks shortly, thanks!].

Hey I don't see your email address in your profile but I know a bit about knives and would be happy to answer any questions

I do know a bit about knives. Your email address isn't in your profile. Mine is in mine; feel free.

Part of knowing something about knives is in selecting the right tool(s) for the users. I'm not going to buy a 200mm gyuto for my parents; I got them a set of [chef's knife, bread knife, paring knife] that is miles better than what they had and still holds up well because I know it's only going to be sharpened when I come to visit.

Anyone opening a can with a knife should feel bad about it.

I have a nasty scar down my finger from opening a bottle with a knife, I’d advise against using knives like this.

Spoons work great though!

Different kind of bottle but I've pulled a damaged cork with a 3.5 inch deck screw and a pair of pliers before. Worked great.

I mean, you have a knife and you have a can. You need to open said can... You _will_ use the damned knife.

Less of a problem nowadays, since it seems most cans have pull tabs. But the metal of the cans is usually far more malleable than the knife, and if you have a work knife, it isn't unreasonable to do so.

> feel bad about every time they use it open a can of beans.

There are no words for this.

On the flipside, it can definitely portray a quality on the item - it's not just a $300 knife, but a $300 knife that Jim picked out, and Jim window-shops knives when you walk by his desk. Because Jim picked something he knew about, he knows how to give a better gift.

I'm a big fan of giving the best gift you uniquely know how to give, and failing that something broadly useful or consumable.

Email sent. Knives have been a hobby for a long time. Got to spend some time, when I've visited the US, in workshops of Chad Nichols damascus, Vegas forge, Tom Krein and Brian Fellhoelter. Great fun.

Yeah. There are also indie crafters at that price point with high-quality products.

It's much harder with knowledge material.

When possible, this is when gift cards are great.

My niece is an aspiring artist, and rather than trying to find out what art supplies she wants/needs, I got her a gift card to the art supply store that I know she shops at.

Of course, "when possible" is a key word here. Not every store sells gift cards, and sometimes the well-known stores aren't the best deals. Like, I might be interested in making fun electric gadgets, so a gift certificate to the Adafruit might seem like a good idea, but I tend to prefer to buy my stuff from Aliexpress or Banggood because the prices are significantly lower.

> I suppose the point of the article on this point is that if I just asked my friend, they would receive the value of the gift

Simply asking really is the best course of action logically, but the idea of gifts being thought up on your own has been so romanticized.

Honestly I'm not a big fan of gift cards. The point of gift giving is to show you care, and gift cards feel like you're just trying to fulfil a social obligation without putting much thought into it.

I'd rather use them as a last resort, for people I don't know so well.

I have a lot of hang-ups about gifts, largely because of the way this cultural ideal of the "thoughtful gift" plays against a personality more preoccupied with ideas rather than people and relationships. And so, rather than merely "fulfill a social obligation", I largely found ways to avoid it altogether.

But now I think that was a foolish dismissal of social obligation. It really is the act itself that has the most significance, less so the content. To wit, the article's advice that in most cases, cash is fine.

I dunno. I know any number of woodworker friends who are tickled pink to get e.g. Lie-Nielsen gift cards so they can get what they want for themselves once they accumulate enough. I think this perfectly nails the point of the article though, about how the giver has different motivations than the receiver.

I'm also not a huge fan of gift cards as logically, gift cards are cash with restrictions, which is worse than cash, and cash isn't a good gift, so by transitivity, gift cards aren't a good gift.

The only time I use gift cards are when it needs to be reimbursed as a business expense.

Personally as a gift receiver I much prefer receiving things that I couldn't have gotten myself, and preferably edible. Simple homemade desserts are great.

I used to think this way about gift cards but as I've gotten older I've had a bit of a change of heart - when I get cash (or a big shop gift card like Amazon) I often end up using it towards basic living expenses that I would have purchased anyway, like groceries or cleaning supplies (even though I'm not in a situation where that is strictly necessary). This is really no fun, and possibly the reason cash is considered a bad gift.

I think the sweet spot for a gift is something I would enjoy but would be unlikely to buy for myself (or in the case of experiences something I normally wouldn't do often), as you pretty much said. But a safe way to achieve this IMO is something like a gift card to a nice restaurant or a spa. Of course you still need to know your target though.

Kind of reminds me of the Netflix problem, the large pool of choices can make none of them seem particularly exciting.

Cash is a great gift for everyone who isn't so rich that gifts are pointless. The war on cash is US corporate consumerism pushing people to waste money.

I still prefer gift cards, because they entice people to use them on non-essential things. I'd throw a 50€ on top of the pile, but I'd use a 50€ gift card for something nice I wouldn't buy otherwise.

I think it depends on how you give it to the person.

Think about giving someone a generic gift card without any other information vs. "Hey, I know you're looking to get into art but honestly I have no idea what type of supplies you want, so here's a gift card to buy what you want from xyz art store".

I know when I was a kid getting a $50 gift card for some toy store that sold video games was the best thing ever. Your Aunt may have good intentions but she probably doesn't know what games you like but you sure as heck appreciated the gift because it translates to something you really like that was enabled by the gift giver.

I think the card being specific to 1 store also really helps personalize the gift. You can be sure the person will enjoy it instead of maybe feeling guilty about how they should really use it for every day living expenses.

Totally! A Modulor (big art store) gift card would force me to buy things I don't usually splurge on. An Amazon gift card would imperceptibly reduce my next order.

I know it's somewhat taboo to give cash, but surely cash is better than a gift card (with a note to spend it on their hobby, if you like)?

If the gift card value is too low to get the treat that I wanted, then I feel obligated to spend more money than I would have; if the gift card value is too high, then I have to buy things I don't want. Or I wait until I actually need the gift card (as I suspect most people do), and risk the gift card expiring or being lost.

Cash creates none of these issues. I have always felt much more loved when I receive cash with a personal note, no matter how much cash it is.

The problem with that is, when someone receives cash, they will often feel the responsible thing to do is save it. Pay down their bills or add to their investments or whatever. Or even if they don't need the money, just adding it to the bank account and forgetting about it will often be the default action, even if some suggestion came with it. But then it's just a drop in the bucket, and they don't really get to experience the pleasure of a gift. The nice thing about a gift card is that they have to spend it, and so they can't feel guilty for doing so.

That said, some people might genuinely not want/need anything, and so might be happier with a token cash gift specifically because it doesn't create a responsibility to go buy something! I expect those people are in the minority though.

> The problem with that is, when someone receives cash, they will often feel the responsible thing to do is save it.

That's not my experience of giving, receiving, or observing other people giving and receiving cash as a gift.

Most people seem (to me) to feel the responsible thing to do is to use the money in the way that the giver wanted for them.

Anecdote: My friend who was saving for a house received gift money from her grandparents. Despite the money being useful for her savings, she went and first bought a kayak with it, because that was more true to what her grandparents wanted.

If the giver says "please spend this on your hobby" then it seems to me that the money gets spent on that hobby - likely more effectively and perhaps more often than a gift card does.

Giving a gift card might force the issue, but that's not a good thing.

If someone needed that money to cover their rent this month, and is resultingly able to buy themselves something for themselves the next month, that's an awesomely good outcome. A gift card in that situation would be upsetting to the point of damaging.

Certainly I agree that if someone is in real financial hardship a gift of cash is going to be better than a gift card. As for the more general case, my anecdotes differ from yours—I expect that there are plenty of people who fall into both the prefer-cash and prefer-card categories.

Would you (personally) prefer to receive a gift card?

This thread seems to be full of people indicating that they would prefer to give a gift card against other people indicating they would prefer to receive cash (which precisely matches the parent article's points).

I consider gift cards to be the worst gift. You’ve just obligated me to shop somewhere where I might not need to shop, or now I have to remember I have this gift card and use it. I like to travel light, and have less things on my mind.

You’ve just given the merchant an interest free loan that they can invest, instead of giving me cash which I could have invested if I wanted. Or spent if I wanted.

In my opinion as a gift receiver and a gift giver...

Cash is the best thing for adults or anyone old enough to pick something out on their own. Gift cards, if you already know someone was going to spend their own money somewhere anyway, are an OK way of displacing cash they were going to spend anyway (and often perceived as more socially tolerable).

Kids meanwhile? Ask the parent, it's OK to bring an idea of your own to that parent, or just get a theme, but ask the parent. That allows for co-ordination of who's getting what type of gift and also helps get the gifts that the parent will let the kids have.

This xmas / fall gifts season (various birthdays) a brand of magnetic edge building walls (piccaso tiles, I think?) was the rage with some family I gave gifts to. I hope they like the mother-load hoard of tiles that are in the que for Xmas.

I have this problem often. I want very few things, I can easily afford everything I want, and the things I might want fall into two categories:

1. I already know the most about the thing and have already found the one that either maximizes the utility/price relationship or maximizes utility below my price sensitivity threshold.

2. I don't know the most about the thing yet and have therefore not decided what I want.

The problem with the first is obvious: I either already own the thing or am about to, so the gift becomes just a cash transfer, and I don't need or want cash transfers from my friends.

The problem with the second is less obvious until you know that I dislike owning things and only choose to own things when they meet the first category.

So what's the answer for people with enough money and interest to buy good things for themselves?

Don't buy them utility gifts if you aren't more passionate than they are.

Buy them only weird sentimental things and quirky consumables that don't have to meet a personalized utility threshold. A small piece of artwork that comes with a note saying "This made me think of you" carries sentimental value and will make the receiver think of giver every time they look at it. A weird chocolate with ants inside will be weird and fun and it won't matter if it isn't the best weird chocolate with ants inside.

The sweet spot is consumables that will improve their life, but that they don't feel like spending money on. Let them indulge in quality food, candles, wine, clothes, tools, etc.

> Buy them only weird sentimental things ... A small piece of artwork that comes with a note saying "This made me think of you" carries sentimental value

It is incredibly hard to do this without giving someone a burden. The recipient often feels an obligation to keep obviously sentimental gifts, even if they hate them (that piece of art your dear aunt gave you).

Or maybe worse when the receiver loves dust collectors, and has a horde of clutter that you have just added to.

Certainly you are inviting them to reciprocate with something sentimental, which now you can’t throw away even though you have no place to put it.

It can be done, but you have to be really in tune with their tastes or listened carefully to what they like (e.g. I love some artists, but can really hate some of an artists oeuvre or I might not have a suitable place for it, so it is hard to pick something for me).

> and will make the receiver think of giver every time they look at it

Sometimes that could be selfish (depends on relationship etcetera).

This.

As a minimalist related to borderline hoarders, I dread gift-giving occasions. When I give what I would want, it's considered stingy and sparse.

On this note, don't buy things that are squarely in the recipient's domain of expertise unless they have stated exactly what they want.

I like photography and outdoors and I'm extremely picky about my gear in both, and definitely do NOT want others picking out gear for me that I will end up never using.

On the other hand, do buy things that are in your domain of expertise that the other person has shown interest in learning about.

Hey Afton! Yes, I definitely should have talked more about this. I got close to it once or twice, but it's an omission to be sure. (I have a friend who's big into cycling and is, therefore, impossible to buy cycling gifts for because nothing will cut the mustard.) Basically, I a) wasn't able to find much in the way of research that supported what I wanted to say and b) fumbled this point and should have found a way to stick it in there somehow.

But then again I had no idea it would hit the top of HN. I'll be more careful next time!!

Nah, you made a thing and put it on the internet! Thanks for doing that. The fact that I didn't find it a complete and exhaustive body of work on the topic absolutely shouldn't be interpreted as a criticism of the article.

Oh dude thank you. Nothing prepares you for hitting the front page of hn when you fully expected it to just disappear. Heartrate through the roof and the sudden 'oh shit!' of wondering whether the article was truly up to snuff or not!

I think you absolutely could just ask. Once you get over the need for surprise, the hand-off can still be a moment of delight. It's just a different sort of delight: it's the one you are anticipating because the thing you were excited about is finally arriving.

Yes, this is the problem with gift giving something a person is “passionate” about— that passion means they probably already have the things they want and likely also has strong preferences you are unlikely to know anyways.

I find buying a shared experience is better— a meal, dessert, golf, spa, etc. You get to spend time together, you get the benefit too, and it will not tend to be more memorable than some random gift.

My wife hates this. Everything I want that I can afford, I already own. Anything I want that I can't afford, I shouldn't be receiving as a gift from someone else. That leaves the only remaining case of "things I don't want". So duplicate gifts, expensive gifts, or bad gifts.

This puts us into the category that the article states you don't want to be in: guessing for things the other person wants (but doesn't know they want). this works great for me and my wife. it becomes an adventure of learning about each other. Not so much for aunts/uncles/etc. Cash, or nothing is fine. I feel worse about getting some knick knack that gets thrown out than just getting nothing.

I think the best gifts are things you want, can afford, but haven't (quite yet) been able to justify.

Up-thread people are talking about $300 knives. The vast majority of users here can 'afford' a $300 knife; that doesn't mean it's easy to justify or feel good about though.

But receiving a $300 knife? I'd be giggly and excited and I'm not even 'into' knives. (I mean, they're tools, I have some decent ones, but they support interests rather than being the interest.)

I'd be sad about the huge waste. That's why a gift should only be a surprise on the when, not the what.

>That leaves the only remaining case of "things I don't want". So duplicate gifts, expensive gifts, or bad gifts.

You're forgetting consumables. Surely you spend your time doing things and in the process of doing those things you consume other things.

"I have way too many zip ties"

-nobody ever

Your post really struck a chord with me because I'm the type of person that likes to give books as a gift.

As the type of person that would totally give a book of 100 bread recipes to someone that I just know "bakes bread," I'm wondering if you think there are book gifts that someone could get you using that mindset and just a little more thinking about depth of domains.

One doesn't need to know anything about baking bread to know that a recipe compilation book is a beginner gift and not something you'd give to someone who has any sort of domain expertise. Similar to how I'm not giving any of my SE friends the Computer Science for Dummies book.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is... would a book about baking that isn't basic be a better gift? Even if it isn't particularly something you would have gotten yourself. Examples off the top of my head include a biography about a famous or obscure baker, an in depth book about the science behind baking, a hyper focused book about history of baking techniques, etc.

Maybe trying to gain some domain expertise in something your potential gift receiver is interested in - in order to give a better gift - is a gift in itself?

Here's a quick way you can get some functional domain expertise in knives to give a better gift to your knife friend (if you want). Depending on if they're into knives as collectibles or for use, I'd suggest finding out which brand(s) your friend favors and then picking up a used knife in a discontinued model from that brand on ebay. Worst case scenario they have it already but even then I bet they'd still value the gift.

My intuition would be to not give a book on baking bread, but on something tangential to bread baking...

like a book on brewing or other kinds of fermentation!

Something that connects with their expertise but is new to both of you.

If somebody is into knives, maybe gift a course on blacksmithing or some japanese whetstones.

As a recipient of a blacksmithing course I'd like to say it was one of the best gifts I ever got. But it's a pretty expensive gift.

But I've also been given knives a few times, and I loved most of them. It's not like you can have too many knives.

I'm not sure what I'd do with an extra set of whetstones though.

I've been blacksmithing long enough to have arguably too many knives.

> or some japanese whetstones

I bought a set of diamond sharpening plates this summer after having had a cheap Arkansas stone for several years.

Night and day difference.

I can actually get things sharp quickly and consistently now.

Since we're on the topic of gifts, if someone out there is thinking of a sharpening setup as a gift, can't recommend diamond plates highly enough.

I bought a 300 / 600 / 1200 grit set off Amazon for I think $100

A good coarse stone makes all the difference. I have a 220/320 grit diamond plate for flattening my water stones, but it does wonders for making sharpening knives non-onerous.

Woodworkers might be interested in the Norton water stone starter set of 2 combo stones 220/1000 and 4000/8000. The 220 wears out of flat so quickly it's useless, but I have the diamond plate anyhow. The 1000 and 8000 are great. The 4000 is a little soft, and you'll replace it before the others. Personally, I'll be replacing it with the Shapton equivalent in another year or two.

I completely agree the 300 grit plate is what makes all the difference.

I've never heard of these diamond plates. Do they take away a lot of material? My whetstones are 2000/6000 grit.

I use diamond plates to flatten my whetstones mostly, because masochism.

They're also great on blades. You wanna look for DMT / Dia-Sharp. All the big online knife shops should have you covered here (epicurean edge, etc)

Or unusual bread supplies could be cool. Like flour made from ancient grains and/or ground with a traditional stone mill, etc.

For knives, a nice grind stone or knife oil could be useful.

I think splurge hobby consumables is a great way to go.

Eh, not always. Every knitter I know would murder you if you bought them more yarn, even nice yarn, even though they knit frequently. They already have three bins full and are running out of places to stash it.

It's not perfect, but depending on how much you know about them, probing niche areas of their interest can work out.

A book of 100 basic bread recipes is nearly useless for an experienced baker. A book of "authentic Mozambique bread recipes" though - that might be very interesting to them because it broadens their knowledge within their field. It's even better if it connects to them in a personal way - a family connection to Mozambique, or traveled there, etc.

It's not foolproof, but it's a big improvement.

in all likelihood, this person knows way more about bread and bread-related items than you do. if it's bread related and costs less than $20, assume they either have it already or know about it and don't want it.

I find it's usually not a good idea to buy someone this kind of present unless you're willing to just ask them exactly what they want. instead, why not select something that you know a lot about that could still be useful to them? last christmas I set up backblaze on my mom's NAS (which I built for her several years ago) and paid for the first few months of service. my mom couldn't care less about the nuances of cloud storage providers, but she's quite happy to be paying a fraction of what a 10TB google drive subscription would have cost.

Tyler Cowen has an interesting perspective on giving books as gifts: https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2018/09/he...

That post seems to be referring more to donating used books rather than buying a book for someone as a gift.

Seems like a different topic entirely to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

This is quite frankly ludicrous, and speaks to an unintentionally humorous pomposity.

It's quite literally impossible to estimate the potential utility of another persons leisure time. But part of the joy of gift giving is trying to figure out what they might enjoy. Just as part of the social game of gifting is to see what others think you might like. It's a way of opening up to new experiences granted by people who know you. Ideally scaffolding perspectives and pleasures that appeal but were outside what you'd normally enjoy. An unread book can always be regifted, and it takes a sociopath to regard a gifted book as an insult.

Sure, if your goal is to maximise the utility of every moment algorithmically, this might seem wasteful. But you're also very likely not any fun at all, and have few people to gift.

With comment about in-depth book about bread I remembered this: https://modernistcuisine.com/books/modernist-bread/ 25 kilos, about 2600 pages of book...

What happens if person isn't that interested on the subject after all... Maybe a book might be a good one, but still total overkill. And maybe even harmful if subject isn't ready to invest even more...

If they are interested in cooking you can buy them a top pepper mill from Kickstarter. Maybe for the next Christmas though.

Its from the things that would be great to have but i cannot justify the cost.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mannkitchen/mannkitchen...

this comment reminds me of homer buying marge a bowling ball.

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