250M people participate in nationwide strike in India | Hacker News Reader

250M people participate in nationwide strike in India

peoplesdispatch.org

80 pointsAndrewBissell58 comments

There's been a bunch of articles on this from fringe/propaganda websites, which seem to be full of unreliable information. Here's a comment from an Indian that I found on Reddit:

"I'm Indian and the stupidity in these threads is palpable. Jesus

Firstly, the article cited by OP is an extremely clickbait and dishonest article

To clarify -- NO. There were NOT a quarter billion people marching down the streets.

The gist of the article is basically that there was a holiday strike organised by organised labor officials that simply AFFECTED 250 million people. And it essentially tries to imply that 250 million total workforce apparently participated in rebelious strike by the virtue of simply following the nation-wide holiday. Which is very nonseniscal

For context, the central government itself declared the strikes. And nation-wide and state-wide strikes have always been very common in India and happen at least 2-3 times every year and is fully supported by the government machinery and the constitution. Unlike the US, India does have some labor movement, but this doesn't mean every single one of the people partaking in it are anti-government left-wing workers lmao

In reality, this was not even at the centre of the news cycle in india and most people don't even know or care about the left-wing protests which is in the thousands (not hundreds of millions)

Despite what one would like to believe, the BJP continues to have a majority broad-based support overall.

State-wise though, it's a different story. just like America, India has a North-South dichotomy

Every single state in the South is non-BJP and ruled by centre-left parties, with the exception of my state of Karnataka (which was headed by a center-left party until 2019 but was flipped to the right by the BJP) and Kerala, which is the only remaining leftist stronghold and ruled by the 'Communist party of India - Marxist' (CPI-M). And almost every single state in the north is pro-BJP

Intrestingly enough though, Kerala (the communist state), is the most developed as per human development indices (almost 100% literacy rate, highest gdp per capita, >1 Male-Female sex ratio, lowest child mortality, highest healthcare coverage etc). It unfortunately has had the highest unemployement for any state in the country."

https://www.reddit.com/r/VaushV/comments/k3q7hi/250_million_...

There was no "nationwide holiday" last week. I don't know what holiday you are talking about, Thanksgiving is not really a thing, until today I never heard of constitutional day.

Not being in the new cycle is less to do with newsworthiness and more to do with mainstream being either biased or unable to talk too badly about the government. While Arnab Goswami's high profile arrest recently is not good indicator, the news not really critical of the current government is pretty obvious

Characterizing Kerala as communist state is over simplifying. Kerala always ruled by coalition of small parties, Congress and CPI-M are just single largest parties in those coalitions, and many times communist parties are part of the Congress coalition and vice versa. The smaller parties are reflection of diverse backgrounds of people of Kerala- broadly top third of the state is largely Muslim, central Kerala has lot of Christians and south a lot of hindus etc. IUML(Muslim League) parties have strong presence in north part of the state for example.

"Highest unemployment in Kerala" is very mis-leading statistic, Kerala has much better reporting of such stats than many parts of the country, and also given its huge dependence on remittances from middle east and their larger participation in foreign markets for jobs is nuanced to be captured here, you travel across karnataka(your state) and kerala you would not believe Kerala has lot more unemployment.

Yes the numbers and articles are misleading, but Indian media coverage of the strike and the protest has been very poor especially in the context of 24x7 breaking news cycle.

The server seems to be a bit unstable right now, so here’s an archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20201201122616/https://peoplesdi...

Other press describes protests of tens of thousands. 250M is far-fetched.

Off by a factor of 25.000?

This wasn't all in one place. Also, the general strike was one day, but the protests after that day have continued.

A strike and a protest is not the same. You can be on strike without taking parts in any protests. Strike is about work stoppage.

Even though Indian Economy is about 16% agri, 60% of the population is dependent on Agriculture. Any kind of Agricultural reforms will have reaction at this scale whether the fears are real or perceived.

If that 60% is going to be dragooned from getting all of that 16% to some tiny sliver of a higher total number under the neoliberal reforms, then their fears are entirely justified.

Any news articles or third-party reports to confirm that figure of 250M strikers? The only sources I've found on it so far are far-left political websites.

I hesitate to trust e.g. Fox News when reporting on the size of Trump's inauguration; likewise, I am skeptical to trust far-left websites reporting on the size of a far-left rally (as pics of hammer-and-sickle flags seem to indicate). An independent report on the size of these strikes would be helpful.

It's unfair to be downvoting you for this, even as the OP and someone sympathetic with the strikes I can acknowledge that this is a motivated source and the headline number is probably embellished. I can't edit now but it might be good for mods to just remove the specific number from the title.

The number is from the unions and organizers involved in the strike. The sum of their members lists I would guess.

« The huge mobilisation, which organisers said involved 250 million people » https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2020/11/27/indi-n27.html

this article is misleading. 250M people never participated in nationwide strike. it would be barely in thousands or hundreds.

It's not even the first +100M strike in India.

https://qz.com/india/1516319/indias-trade-unions-to-strike-a...

Again, there is so much disinformation citing opinion pieces. Here is a link to Govt. of India Gazette notification of the Farm Bill.

http://egazette.nic.in/WriteReadData/2020/222040.pdf

TL;DR: Until now, farmers were at the mercy of middlemen to sell their produce. With the new act Farmers are free to sell it to anyone [E.g grocery chains] directly in addition to the Govt guaranteed minimum price [a.k.a MSP] So if Market price > MSP; Sell directly in the market. Else, govt will purchase the produce at a minimum guaranteed price. So in essence, govt is protecting the interests of the farmers. The current protests are an amalgamation of disgruntled middlemen who are going to lose fat profits and some political parties trying to get mileage out of it.

what about the people who don't want the market needlessly inflated by price floors?

I'm not well versed (or even poorly versed) in agriculture economics but isn't this what the United States does to a certain degree? I know some farmers get subsidies but I'm not sure how / why.

most farmers in India are very poor, they depend on the profit from the crops to do anything in their families. Example, marriage of their kdis, fixing their house etc. Most of them have small patches of land and depend entirely on monsoon rains. So if the rains fail in a given year OR the supply is too high in the market, farmers don't even break even.

So to protect farmers, Govt of India and the state govts provide lot of subsidies and incentives. Here is a short list: 1) They don't pay taxes on their income. 2) Get loans at a very low interest rates. Most of the time loans are waived off. 3) They don't pay for the electricity used for farming. 4) They get subsidized prices on the seeds, fertilizers etc.

such low quality article trending on hacker news. Just pick some random number like 250 million out of thin air.

The article seemed well written to me. Though I don't know enough about Indian politics to consider its accuracy.

What about this article strikes you as low quality? Do you have a better source on this news?

Hypocrite Opportunists at every corner, even the Canadian PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LG8_sRbBcYw

My father was a farmer in Punjab. I have family at these protests right now. I can tell you that the anger is very real. Their livelihoods are being stripped away from them just so Modi’s friends can make a quick buck. I like free markets, but it should not have to come at the expense of those at the bottom of the chain.

Anger can be real, but don't know if it is informed and rational. All I hear is that it is bad, but not able to find information how. Most of the protestors don't even know the details of what is being changed.

And, frankly, at this stage if you think somebody like Modi or Rahul Gandhi or Kejriwal is about helping their friends make quick buck, the story doesn't add up. In their position they would think and act for legacy and it becomes much more a capability issue instead of intent.

Objectively, it is replacing a bad system.

But the proponents of the bill place too much faith in the market. India has never had truly free markets. There is a very legitimate concern that a few big corporations will monopolize the market and leave farmers with no real choice.

The concerns might have been muted if successive governments hadn't shown a willingness to bend and break (or heck, even set new rules) for a couple of major industrialists. As things stand, it is hard to trust the government.

Policy change will continue to happen. And they happen because someone is rooting for them. You can't penalize a Industrialist for being an Industrialist. They are wealth generators and are doing that for a large number of people and not themselves alone (you can argue by how much).

BTW, Farmers have enjoyed their share of handouts which are more or less treated as entitlement now a days: 1. Tax free income 2. Subsidies, lona waivers, electricity bill waivers 3. Minimum Support Price for the longest time

Farmers have access to 24x7 free water and power supply (something I in the city don't get). They get access to free seeds, pesticides and unending loan waivers year after year. In exchange we get the worst air pollution in the world and these protests that harm the general populace more. So I ask you, what more do farmers want? Is asking for something in return for billions of dollars in tax too much?

Do you have any stats to back your statement that farmers get 24x7 free water and power supply? Majority of my family from Punjab is into farming and we've always struggled with lack of water and power. There is subsidized power supply on paper but in reality it's supplied way less than what's needed. Same is the case with water. People have to use gensets and thus spend more money than the standard power rate. We would rather pay the market rate for these and get better supply than the subsidized but poor service.

Firsthand experience and many folks I know have seen it. Some of them actually turned to farming seeing the benefits and are actually generating humongous amounts of profits. Like my immediate neighbor is doing it right now. I'm not from Punjab, it might be different there.

If seeds and pesticide weren't free, farmers would have to pass on these costs to the consumer. In a country where the poorest state has a per capita income of less than $51/month [0], even a 20% hike in food prices will hurt the weakest a great deal.

Coincidentally, the weakest often tend to be farmers themselves. Average land holding size for farmers is abysmally small - less than 3 acres - and shrinking every year [1]. The average Walmart parking lot is bigger than most farms in India.

Expecting such subsistence farmers for being "grateful" for their measly subsidies is a bit rich.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Bihar

[1]: https://www.livemint.com/Politics/SOG43o5ypqO13j0QflaawM/The...

I'm not saying farmers shouldn't get the subsidies. But no one should have a problem if the sector's inefficiencies are removed and that generates frictional unemployment.

Uh, if they have access to every facility to improve but instead of availing of it, they choose to squander it all, I'm not going to be exactly sympathetic with them. I've firsthand seen the mindset of these people who want to do nothing all day and expect government dole-outs all the time.

The article is very passionate, and as a resident of the US, I don't have a lot of context here. Just wanted to dump out some of what I found when looking deeper into this.

Apparently 10 major unions have called for a strike for somewhere between 11-13 points of demands [1][2][3], though all sources seem to say "12 point charter of demands". Here are the 13, the first and the last are sometimes included and sometimes not:

0 (possibly just a preamble?): Urgent measures for containing price-rise through universalisation of public distribution system and banning speculative trade in commodity market

1 Containing unemployment through concrete measures for employment generation

2 Strict enforcement of all basic labour laws without any exception or exemption and stringent punitive measures for violation of labour laws.

3 Universal social security cover for all workers

4 Minimum wages of not less than Rs 15,000/- per month with provisions of indexation

5 Assured enhanced pension not less than Rs.3,000/- p.m. for the entire working population

6 Stoppage of disinvestment in Central/State PSUs

7 Stoppage of contractorisation in permanent perennial work and payment of same wage and benefits for contract workers as regular workers for same and similar work

8 Removal of all ceilings on payment and eligibility of bonus, provident fund; increase the quantum of gratuity.

9 Compulsory registration of trade unions within a period of 45 days from the date of submitting application; and immediate ratification of ILO Conventions C 87 and C 98

10 Stoppage of Pro Employer Labour Law Amendments

11 Stoppage of FDI in Railways, Insurance and Defence

12 (some documents omit this one) In addition to these the central trade unions are also demanding the withdrawal of the Land Acquisition amendment bill/ordinance.

It appears that there are 11 central unions [4], and all but one have called for a strike [5], at least as of January 2020, though it's unclear if that is still the situation.

[1] http://citucentre.org/389-12-point-charter-of-demands-of-joi... has 11 points, but maybe the introduction is a 12th?

[2] https://www.jornalet.com/documents/12-demandas.pdf has 12

[3] http://citucentre.org/component/k2/75-12-point-charter-of-de... has 13 lines

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions_in_India

[5] https://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/why...

For the Western audience, tl;dr is that these reforms will allow free market to decide the price. This has made a lot of people very mad who had their own monopoly. Farmers do have legitimate concerns about predatory pricing by private institutions but as a whole, the agriculture employs 45% of the country's population and contributes a measly 14% or so to the economy. There's a big problem of hidden unemployment in India and farmers almost always get the bottom end of the stick.

BJP (the current ruling party) has a history of having good ideas but implementing them in the worst and most authoritarian manner possible. But these will be passed if the past is any indication.

Edit: I wonder precisely which inaccuracy tipped off some people.

You mean like the time they tried to go to a cashless economy without any real alternative for the majority of the population?

The main thing the bjp has as far as I can see is a violent hatred of Muslims, which in a country with the largest population of Muslims in the world is not going to end well.

We did get a strong online payment system because of it. It is bearing fruits, just not as well as we'd hoped. And yes, I'm aware of the problems it caused too.

Look, I'm a strong liberal but it's hard not to dislike the Muslims if you were born before 2000 (which most of the BJP brass is). Muslims just don't assimilate well. And not their fault to a large degree, but actively protesting against raising the marriage age, triple talaq and faulting the French government in the latest bombing. They have lots of countries to do this, I don't want India becoming any more polarized or extremist. Every side is playing this politics, BJP is just doing it successfully.

According to the article there are many other objections/demands and this is not just about free market pricing:

Some of the key demands contained in the 12-point charter put forward by the organizers include withdrawal of a series of laws recently passed by the Modi government repealing key labor and farm price protections, a rollback in the recent disinvestment policies in major government-owned enterprises, implementation of existing welfare schemes for rural workers, and expanding welfare policies to aid the masses affected by the economic fallout of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Privatization of government-owned enterprises sounds like a potential red flag just by itself if they're key services like the power grid or a health system (just hypothetical, since it's not clear which services are in question). Repealing labor protections is potentially very bad. A lack of aid for masses impacted by the COVID pandemic by itself is already justification for a strike by itself if the government is ignoring the needs of the people.

India is a mess precisely because of the never ending virtue signalling and good-on-paper rules.

We always have the most protectionist rules and then we wonder why industry isn't growing. Welfare schemes don't work, period. 99% money ends up in a politician's bank. Disinvestment is a necessity. Government-owned institutions provide sub-par service and are a huge money drain of taxpayer money. I live in a tier 2 city and get daily power cuts for hours. And then the "public servants" have the gall to screw up the power transformer for 30 hours after making thousands of millions of loss. Not acceptable anymore.

Idk the populist government is finally bringing on some unpopular policies to reduce tax wastage and the detractors are up in arms. Timing is horrible, I'll give you that.

Thanks for elaborating, the article doesn’t really explain exactly what measures the Indian government did to inflame such a protest but between the communist flags the protestors hold, and what groups comprises the bulk of protestors I had an idea.

A)Funded by opposition and foreign players. Always a presence whenever civil unrest is involved. B)India has a love-hate relationship with communism. We are a poor country because of it, but poverty pushes more people to communism. C)Whenever you see an article about India, don't put it in white or black. With a country of about 1.5 billion, nothing is black or white, ever.

Very well put.

Lal Salam!

This is what democracy looks like

Lots of flags and banners with hammers and sickles?

Did you read the article or simply took a look at the images?

Are votes illegitimate because the voter is a communist? Whether someone has a right to vote in a democratic system shouldn't depend on their politics or gender or race.

Most people care about democracy not in the abstract procedural sense but because it tends to produce human rights respecting outcomes. We aren’t obligated to abstractly uphold democracy in the face of a majority holding Nazi symbols. The same logic should apply to other symbols of extreme oppression such as communist paraphernalia.

How does that work when (Marxist) communism is a democratic ideology? In fact, most communists (and some political philosophers) hold that capitalism and democracy are incompatible. Leninism is (in theory, maybe not in practice!) also democratic, and anti-Stalinist forms of communism are too.

>but because it tends to produce human rights respecting outcomes

From the communist's point of view, they agree with this - communist movements until shortly after the second world war stressed non-involvement and the illegitimacy of "bourgeois democracy". The communists contend that the mixture of capitalism and democracy does not yield human-respecting outcomes, even if they may produce outcomes that correspond to the liberal conception of human rights.

If there is no space to disagree with liberalism - from its economics (capitalism) to its conception of human freedom (the rights system and the law of the state), where does that leave us? I think it results in dogmatism and ideological conformity.

Liberalism and capitalism should be able to withstand criticism and rhetoric without banning such criticism because of the symbols used to represent it. And it really is just criticism - these people are trying to get elected.

Those are all fair points. But if I were a non-authoritarian Marxist, I'm not sure I'd want to use the hammer and sickle as a symbol, because too many people confuse it with authoritarian Marxism, and therefore would regard me and my position as automatically tainted.

For a political movement, symbols are not just for those on the inside...

> We aren’t obligated to abstractly uphold democracy in the face of a majority holding Nazi symbols.

What if those people holding Nazi symbols want human-rights respecting outcomes that are very different from the ideology of the German Nazi party? If democracy is not just abstract and symbolic, you shouldn't dismiss a political party as undemocratic just because they use the wrong symbols, but look at the specific actions they take (the same holds for parties using the "right" symbols and paying lip service to democracy while trying to subvert it).

For example, the Indian state of Kerala is currently ruled by a government led by the Communist Party of India (Marxist), not in a one-party dictatorship, but as a coalition government of several parties. They have transitioned peacefully from government to opposition and back again multiple times over the decades. And yes, their party flag is red with a big hammer-and-sickle emblem. Does that last detail make them undemocratic?

It would surprise you to learn that several Indian states have or had communist parties in power, elected through fair and free elections.

People making demands of their government en masse, not just placidly accepting a binary choice once every few years.

Farmers have been commiting suicide since the west imposed the green revolution in India, offering pesticides and chemicals changing crop yields and creating a big disparity between farmers, some became very rich and some poor. As a result they were already angry, this bill now is being used by opposition parties to spread misinformation, which gives them a combined reason to go out and protest. It is also funded by the opposition

Yes, blame everything on the "West", the missionaries, liberals and the "opposition". If India was on it's "own" it would have been richer than USA, more progressive than EU and pigs would be flying by now.

Temp, even though I am an Indian I agree with you, this left head groups in India are going to blame everything on west. Which is not at all true. The Land laws in India limit the amount of Land a person can own, indirectly limiting the maximum earning potential. and so many other laws and red tapes.

I am boggled to think that I am typing all this on hackernews, seems leftists have entered this sane room as well.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com