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Very interesting.

I often wake up at night or early in the morning to go to bathroom, or take water. I found that the best way to go back to sleep after waking up is to think about the dream I just had. It seems like this 'forced' dream continuity is somehow sleep inducing.

What may be happening to you is the same thing: your firs instinct is trying to remember your dream, as you trained yourself through years of dream journaling. It's a learned behaviour. But what happens is, this induces sleep, and you're caught in the loop.

Maybe the trick is to go back to writing down your dreams when you wake up. This activity may keep you from falling back asleep.

Hope this helps.

That's a really interesting take.

I stopped journalling because I noticed I was interpolating the missing bits of my memory while writing down the dream. It became more like writing an imaginary story inspired from my dream, then recording my actual dream.

But that said, I definitely think this is good way to force myself out of the loop.

Try splashing cold water in your face. Slap your self a few times. Turn on something that makes noise, like music. I would avoid recording your dreams, because it seems to be what got you stuck in the loop in the first place.

The only thing that gets me out of bed is the day/night cycle bulbs my snake needs. I know I can automate turning off the night light and turning on the day bulb, but if I don't automate then I know she's depending on me when my alarm goes off so I have to physically get up, walk to the other room, and flip a couple switches. On my way back, it's very easy for me to sit down at the counter and eat the sandwich I made the night before for breakfast.

What kind of snake do you keep?

She's a ball python! Just barely a year old and the sweetest noodle. She just barely became big enough for a 40 gallon tank.

Sounds cool.

She is the best pet I've ever had. Very low-maintenance, doesn't musk, doesn't make noise in the middle of the night, and still shows/craves affection. Did you know snakes yawn? I sure didn't until I got her! Owning a snake has opened my eyes to a lot of amazing things about them :).

Good info. No, I did not know that. Do you know about the Chennai Snake Park? It was founded by an American, Romulus Whitaker. I've been to it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chennai_Snake_Park

That sounds like an amazing experience! I didn't know about it, but now it's on my list.

Have you tried switching places with the snake? You may want to set up automation first as you could find the snake not pushing the light button reliably every morning.

Gradually dimming the bedroom light with a warm color temperature helps me get tired in the evening, and fading it in to a cold color temperature in the morning helps me wake up.

While I understand the point you want to make, the temperature in her tank is the same whether I flip the switches or not- so worst case scenario if I'm dead and don't flip the switches, she has to make do with ambient light from my window instead of light from a bulb directly overhead. This is in fact very safe for the snake, but still enough of a motivation for me.

"temperature" in that comment is referring to the light - different colored lighting can affect your mood and energy levels. An introduction to color temperature here - https://drawpaintacademy.com/what-is-color-temperature/

No disagreement here, but that has nothing to do with putting myself in the snake's metaphorical shoes. The comment I was replying to implied that since I don't automate the flipping of the switches, I risked her health or well-being because of the risk of not doing it manually for some reason. I wanted to reassure him that she's still perfectly safe and that the temperature in her tank (which is the reason for these bulbs. Ball pythons don't need specific types of light to be healthy) would remain constant even if I die and can't flip the switches. So, there's minimal risk to her health and it still is a strong enough motivator that I haven't missed a single morning in the 8 months I've had her. That's all I was saying.

I think thats the point of dream journaling - the dream itself doesn't matter, what matters is how your subconscious mind fills in the blanks to create meaning relevant to your waking life.

Very interesting ideas in this thread: 1. Remembering the dream you were just having re-induces sleep 2. Writing a dream journal first thing every morning as a means of warming up higher levels of cognition (to help break through the morning haze) 3. Given #1 and #2: if you stop journaling, you might end up with a habit that puts you back to sleep in the mornings.

> I found that the best way to go back to sleep after waking up is to think about the dream I just had. It seems like this 'forced' dream continuity is somehow sleep inducing.

That is what I do too. For me, it is the best way to fall sleep right away.

Sometimes I can even resume the dream I was having the morning before and fall asleep instantly. Unfortunately I usually can't remember.

You need more sleep.

That's it. That's the story. There's nothing wrong with you. Trying to set additional alarms, or worrying about how you used to record your dreams... Not relevant. Your body isn't done resting. Stop interrupting it before its done, and you'll find that 8ish hours of uninterrupted sleep is more restful than the quasi-sleep you're getting now.

Sounded to me like they already get 8 hours generally and it pushes up to 10-11.

That said, it’s important to realize that not everyone needs 8 hours of sleep. Some people are blessed to only need 6, some people are cursed to need 10 or 11 hours. Some people have extreme generic quirks that can go from only needing 4 to needing more than 12 (of course you should talk to a doctor if that’s you). 8 is definitely by far the most common, but it’s not a hard rule.

His post said he sets the alarm for 6-7 hours. And I’d agree with this reply to just plan more sleep initially, and (if you can) skip the alarm. Why? I have had the same experience as him with resuming dreams, and know that the “cure” for me (and just generally feeling more awake for the rest of the day) is consistently about 8h15m of sleep. That’s my number, from estimating the average over some years and mostly avoiding alarm clocks, and yours is probably different. I believe I happen to need more than average. Sometimes changing time zones by 4-5 hours can help me reset the rhythm, as does planning my sleep timing based around when I want to wake, rather than my natural habitation as a night owl.

>Stop interrupting it before its done, and you'll find that 8ish hours of uninterrupted sleep is more restful than the quasi-sleep you're getting now.

Probably true, but I value my free time and I want as much of it as possible. That means staying up late. Spending that time sleeping makes me feel like I live to work, and not work to live.

>Probably true, but I value my free time and I want as much of it as possible. That means staying up late.

Staying up late enough that it will impact your following day due to curtailed sleeping is just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

As an unrepentant night owl, this fact doesn't make me happy, but that doesn't stop it from being true. If you want the best possible hours, as many as possible, step one is getting enough sleep at the right time, so that you feel your best during the day. As much as we may wish it were different, that's the way it is.

I'm not an expert on this matter, but it seems that you primed yourself to think that to a subconscious level, maybe try to prime yourself to think about gratitude first thing in the morning, but you'll have to belive deep down that is true, useful and important otherwise those dreams will be more interesting to your mind.

Maybe you could start being grateful about the dreams and let them go, and focus on your body, be grateful you have two legs, you can breath... (find your own things).

Gratitude is not just contemplative bullshit, it can be about action, like OK I'm acknowledge all these good things I have, and I need to fight thermodynamics, taking action or they might go away, like are you grateful you have two legs, take the action of walking and so on, it can be about honoring those things we take for granted but we can lose.

I hope is not too cheesse or sounded crazy.

That was great, thank you.

I know consciously expressing gratitude can be a powerful way to ground yourself and stay positive, but your insight about spurring action to fight thermodynamics is awesome.

> It's like I am in a half-awake and half-sleepy state and I can't control myself to get fully awake, I know for sure I am not lucid dreaming.

Are you having a form of sleep paralysis maybe? This "half awake, half asleep" state is one I know quite well.

Here's a variety of sleep paralysis symptoms I've experienced over the years:

- You're in the "real world", but you feel like you're not really awake

- Limited control over your movements; or extreme difficulty moving your limbs; or you "feel" like you're moving, but you're not quite moving (or not at all; kind of like you're swimming in tar)

- Extreme stress / nervousness, like something's wrong and you can't figure out what; panic even sometimes

- Manifestation of some phobia (spiders, insects, monsters) in your room / around you

- The last few moments, or last situation of your dream keeps repeating, like it's on a loop (you "wake up", think you're awake, and you're still dreaming)

I experienced something similar, maybe 5x in my life: I wake up mentally but I am asleep physically. So somehow I am trapped in my body awake. I can’t move any limb nor open my eyes. I start to panic and after some time I can move a bit, and then a bit more and so on. It’s quite stressful and freaky.

You learn to recognize it, especially if it happens more than once every few years. Then you can just take a breath and relax, knowing "it will end soon". Sometimes you can even break out of it.

It is sleep paralysis. It is completely normal when it happens from time to time. Your brain inhibits muscle movements during certain phases of sleep so that you do not hurt your self. Sometimes this can get out of sync though.

This is just my opinion, and I know it's an unpopular one.

I believe any kind of conscious dream processing is unhealthy. Our dreams is already the results of some kind of processing, so feeding them back as more experiences that need to be analyzed is confusing and tiring for your brain.

You said that you've been doing it since your school days, so perhaps you don't remember, but dreams are made from a different material then regular memories: they are usually very "slippery" and hard to hold on to. I think it's important in this case to go with our default behavior and to forget them as fast as possible. And yes, it means that all lucid dreaming practices are damaging your brain functionality IMO.

To break the loop you're in, I think you need to re-learn how to not mess with dreams. Give yourself the time you need, and if you're tired the best thing to do is to go back to sleep. But avoid doing so while thinking about any dream, or anything that is related to a dream, or even the abstract concept of dreams. When you catch yourself doing do, dismiss the thought with "oh, that isn't important" and then switch the topic to anything else, anything at all. You can follow the line where the wall meets the ceiling, for all your brain cares. The dismiss part is important, don't skip it. It prevents your brain from re-saving the thought. This trick can also be applied to that embarrassing moment your brain keeps popping at random times. Just "not important" wave, and a quick change of subject. Works like a charm.

Good night, sleep well and wake up :)

Is this based on anything other than a feeling? You've equated remembering or reflecting with processing and processing with dysfunction, which makes no sense at all because memories are a core function.

Remembering and reflecting is processing, your brain doesn't have a read only mode.

My claim is that processing a by-product of processing is confusing. It's blurring the line between what's real and what isn't, and to me this is a dysfunction.

I have very similar issues. The key for me is looking at the behavior as a routine and pattern and replace it with a better routine and pattern. You need something to avoid the morning thought trap. The best way I’ve found to counter it is to have an immediate morning routine. For example: I set my running’s shoes and clothes out and the first the I do when my alarm goes off is put them on and go for a run. I’ve done the same thing with meditation as the first part of my day. The key is to pick an activity with minimal activity energy and to setup some visual cues of that activity near your bed. Don’t allow yourself to get pulled into you mind and brain. Eventually your new habit can replace the old one It’s not easy to transition but achievable with persistence and time. It starts out very hard to turn off that pattern. It eventually becomes natural to start your day a different way.

I’ll be honest, right now my routine is in rough shape after a bout of depression, but I’m at about 3-4 days a week and slowly building it up. This is a problem that comes and goes for me and focusing on a steady routine always helps.

I also recommend some meditation practice. On my worse days my mind is a mess of thoughts and dreams in the morning and I can’t make sense of the world much less the running shoes next to my bed. The way I get myself out of that is to bringing back my attention to my breath and body as mindfulness. Eventually I have enough awareness I can start to curl my body and prop myself up for a few minutes while I continue to collect myself.

My read of this is that you've conditioned yourself to wake up mid-REM. This can't be great for you, and probably explains why you're groggy and half-sleepy during those wakeups. I'd consult a sleep specialist to see what can be done about this.

> I know for sure I am not lucid dreaming.

Have you made reality checks? In lucid dreaming the blur between dreams and reality fades fast. Reality checks become non-reliable very fast. One has to make sure to invent constantly reality checks when the old ones stop being reliable.

Did I walk into an editing session of inception 2?

Put your alarm clock on the other side of the room.

Or get one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Clocky-Rolling-Sleeper-Bed-Room-Run-a...

I did this back in high school. Turns out at some point I was able to wake up, walk to the computer (which I used as an alarm clock), stop the alarm, get back to sleep, and forget everything.

If it helps, I’m the same. Generally I’ll have to allocate 10-12 hours in order to get 6 or 8 of actual sleep. Always been the case.

My savior has been audiobooks. I listen a lot, but put a book I know and love on when I wake up 4x/night with a timer and that helps me focus on something new and not stressful (dreams, “I need to go to sleep” etc) while still being something that my brain is familiar with and can naturally drift away from into sleep.

Works 80% of the time. Been a life saver for me

It sounds to me like you're conflicted about whether the dreams are worth analysis. If I were in that position I'd analyze my full history of dream analysis. What has paying lots of attention to my dreams gotten me? How has the experience changed over the years? Am I different now as a result? In what ways am I better, in what ways worse?

The solution to many addiction problems (which you suggest this might be) can be to simply be more context-aware. In the heat of a game, of course you want to keep playing the game. But the more you think about your entire life's context, who you are vs. who you want to be, what you need to get done vs. what you're getting done -- the less focus the object of addiction is able to retain.

(Fun related fact -- more than half of drug addictions in the US are simply "outgrown", with no intervention to blame.)

>Fast forward to present time (10 years from school), whenever I want to wake up i.e. after 6-7 hours of sleep I can't stop myself from thinking about the dream. It's like I am in a half-awake and half-sleepy state and I can't control myself to get fully awake, I know for sure I am not lucid dreaming.

You're lucky. It takes me much practice and cultivation to be able to have that kind of clarity in dream retention.

I ask that people don't talk to me after I wake up, and I keep a journal close, and I work at it, and I'm still able to attain anything like what you're describing only sometimes.

In programming terms, in your sleep, your brain runs a full reference check against all nodes, and the ones that fired the brightest are what you're seeing when you wake up.

Don't let this valuable information go to waste.

Yep, happens to me too. Almost always if I need a bit more sleep but the sun is already up. I don't have these in-between dreaming/awake dreams if it's the middle of the night and still dark.

First, as someone already mentioned, you might need more sleep. What's your sleep duration if you sleep until you wake up by yourself? I'd test that on a quiet long weekend, not during a busy day.

Second, while I now use a lamp which ramps up the light before it starts to chime, I used music (instrumental and not to hectic) to wake me up. Music might get you something else to concentrate on while finally waking up.

BTW, both ramping up lights and playing music at "alarm time" looks like a nice side project for a Raspi. Does somebody know about such a solution?

What if you were to instead plan on sleeping for 8 to 9 hours? Sleeping only 6 to 7 hours is suboptimal for most people. Spending 9 hours in bed and getting 8 hours total sleep would probably be a good target (for most people). I imagine the 3-4 hours of disrupted sleep would become more efficient and shorter if you didn't wake up in the middle from alarms and etc.

Also, as usual, don't listen to random folks on the internet.

Given the time span, I assume the answer is, "no," but are you taking any dietary supplements? DMAE? Galantamine? If yes, stop taking them (after consulting with an appropriate heathcare provider).

EDIT: My own experience with DMAE is that it made some dream memories hard to distinguish from reality. Did that happen only in a dream? I wasn't so sure sometimes.

By the way, I've noticed that changing sides makes me start a new dream. Useful when a dream isn't interesting or pleasant.

I have this strange experience where I only remember my dreams if I am woken up from sleep unnaturally. When it happens it feels as if my mind knows that in the future I'll be woken up by something. Obviously this isn't how the brain chemistry works, but I can't help but feel this way when it happens.

Yeah I totally get what you are saying. I have also noticed that my dreams adapt to outside sounds/lighting changes in realtime. What's more spooky is that the entire dream preserves it cohesion and nothing feels out of place, even when the events outside (in the real world) are completely random. Like sound of the door closing or someone walking by the bed, all of that integrates seamlessly into the dream.

>the entire dream preserves it cohesion and nothing feels out of place

Well, from within the dream at least.

I remember once dreaming that my grandpa was tickling me with static electricity from his arm hairs (for some reason he had very hairy arms in this dream), and inside the dream that didn't seem weird at all. Then I woke up and realized that a fly was walking on my skin and that was the cause of the tickling sensation.

> I have also noticed that my dreams adapt to outside sounds/lighting changes in realtime.

Yes, that happens. I have both read about and experienced it. For example if you are thirsty or hungry (in real life), that can be reflected in your dream, in a related but possibly also weird way (sometimes). Like if you have real hunger, you may dream that you are eating something. I either read or think that the brain/mind does this as a compensating/adjusting mechanism, so that sleep can continue. Same for needing to take a leak, although of course that cannot go on for long. And for the weird part, you may dream that you are eating something impossible to eat, like rocks, to take a wild example. After all, not all events in dreams are logical or follow physical laws of real life.

>What's more spooky is that the entire dream preserves it cohesion and nothing feels out of place, even when the events outside (in the real world) are completely random. Like sound of the door closing or someone walking by the bed, all of that integrates seamlessly into the dream.

Yes, that too happens, and is because any crazy/impossible event can happen in a dream, and in the dream it seems normal - i.e. what I said about physical laws above, and also because our physical senses still operate somewhat in dreams, and those sensations can show up as events in the dream.

Wow you explained me to a tee. I never kept a full blown journal but it was something often discussed in my household. The later dream and wakefulness cycle you describe is something I’ve been trying to “fix” since it often leads to an extra several hour in bed.

Here's a cooky idea:

When you wake up, force yourself out of bed, and immediately go wash your face, then do some pushups or go for a run around the block.

You're in charge of yourself, if you want to wake up, get out of bed and do it. How old are you?

When I'm tired my brain tricks me into going back to sleep, so I guess you are just tired. If you are sleeping more then 8 hours and still feel tired you might have bad sleep quality.

I feel it's the dreaming which makes me tired, I feel exhausted whenever I am able to remember my dreams.

I usually feel pretty good if I don't remember any dream after waking up(Assuming they never happened).

Now that I think more of it, I agree it might be my lack of sleep quality which makes me tired and maybe places/offsets the REM sleep at odd times so I am able to remember the dreams. My circadian rhythm is definitely disturbed as go to sleep around 3:30 to 4:00 AM.

My experience is I'm more likely to remember my dreams if I got woken up unnaturally, so maybe it's the other way around? You only remember your dreams when you wake up tired?

Personally I dont / cant remember my dreams. I very rarely have one, sort of like once every few years, but when I do, I wake up, try to think about it, but it was gone within 1 min. So one time I voice-record everything with my iPhone the moment I was awake.... when I replay it nothing make sense, and there were lots of details missing. Basically I couldn't remember a thing. But when ever dreaming happens it is very tiring. As if like your brain had no time to rest, but it is a very very rare thing to me.

One of my friend has similar problem to yours, sort of like dreaming every night. One of the few thing she find very useful now is to drink a little bit of Alcohol / Red Wine before she sleeps, or do Sports that actually makes you sweat during the day. It seems your mind will spend all the energy on repairing your body then bothering to dream about something.

For me I dream less if I sleep shorter. Its like the system then prioritize deep sleep. But it also wakes me up when Im usually awake. Our systems really like habits/routines. So while I do not recommend sleep deprivation it might help if you sleep 6 am to 10 am for a couple of days, then switch to 10pm to 1am - 6am

You have to get up. Set your body on unreturnable path to awake.

I have a completely different problem - I almost never dream. If I do, they're very short, and very difficult to remember.

Thats me too, I almost never dream , although I am sure I do dream every night, just that when I wake up I have no recollection, perhaps if it was an intense dream then I may sense if it was a sad dream or a happy dream, but rarely do I remember anything specific. I've always wondered if this is normal.

I wonder too. Most people I know, who I've told this to, think its very odd that I never dream.

Probably related, I've struggled with depression nearly my entire adult life. I've learned to cope, drug free, but yea, I'm sure on a neural level my brain just isn't firing at peak levels like a normal person.

yeah same here, most people find it damn peculiar that I have dreamless nights. I don't think depression is related to remembering (I am no doctor nor shrink) but anecdotally my wife has suffered severe depression for a long time and could remember most of her dreams just fine. I suspect it's something to do how memories are retained, I say that because I don't have sharpest short term memory.

If you want to connect with your dreams, try this technique:

Ask to not be disturbed.

Go to sleep.

Sleep until you wake up.

Stay laying down until you fall asleep again.

Your sleep will now be shallow, and it will be easy to drift in and out, and retain a half-conscious state for extended periods.