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Comment by aluminussoma | Hacker News Reader

After reading articles and anecdotes about the way Amazon treats its employees - warehouse and office - I tried to stop giving my business to Amazon. It is hard. Amazon offers a much better customer experience. Trying to place an order at Best Buy or Staples or others, I often encounter random website issues or distribution issues (bad packaging, out of stock despite showing available) that I never had with Amazon. So it costs me more time. Amazon is also cheaper where I live but I'm willing to spend a little bit extra on the alternatives.

What scares me is that Amazon is getting so big that there will be a future where some products will only be online and only on Amazon. It will be too expensive for local retailers to carry them. Amazon will control distribution and supply. That is not a future I want so I put up with the inconveniences of not support Amazon, even if I am tilting at windmills like Don Quixote.

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Before worrying that Amazon will take over the world, it’s useful to remember that roughly 50% of the S&P 500 will be replaced over the next 10 years. There’s never been a company that has climbed to the top, and stayed there forever.

You’re effectively worrying that “this time is different,” which isn’t a good thing to worry about when it comes to humans.

The issues with Amazon’s treatment of labor can’t be solved by a few wealthy consumers like yourself deciding out of guilt to not shop at the place with the cheapest prices and best customer experience.

Workers all over the US are treated exactly the same way, but we don’t shed a tear for them because they don’t work under a big brand with tons of media attention.

Killing Amazon won’t solve the fundamental issues with the US’s lack of worker protections. We should spend our efforts working to fix that, not on conducting economically irrational behavior out of a sense of guilt from some news story we heard. Most people won’t be able to do the same.

> We should spend our efforts working to fix that

How?

Donate time and money to groups championing a few common sense things the majority of the US supports--and the rest of the world already has. Ie. mandatory paid sick leave, mandatory overtime pay, paid maternity leave, socialized disability pay, higher minimum wage floors, etc. Hell, even support for single payer healthcare hovers between 55-60% depending on the poll. These are all likely to happen within the next 10-30 years.

And you might think, but that's impossible in our current climate! This time is different! But looking at it historically, the US changes course and its public opinion shifts dramatically all the time. All it takes is a few viral news stories and some hit TV Shows and we (as a group) change our opinion.

When public opinion changes, policy changes follow (with a 10-20 year lag or so) since the US is a democracy. Think Marijuana legalization, Gay marriage legalization, etc. etc.

If you don't like interacting with the law making political machine, you can try to help influence the public opinion side. Create media, PR campaigns, etc. There's tons of things you can do instead of spending time/money to avoid Amazon. They are doing nothing wrong based on the rules of the game we set up for them.

I have nothing I can possibly add to your excellent comment, but I just wanted to say your attitude is a refreshing viewpoint in contrast to all the doom and gloom you read about in newsrooms around the world (I'm sure it sells a ton of copies though! That's good for the economy, right?)

I aspire to have your optimism. :)

> the US changes course and its public opinion shifts dramatically all the time

And if you want a more recent example of this, look at gay marriage!

"This time is different" happened in 2008 when instead of letting inefficient behemoths crash and burn, they were bailed out. And before that, it happened around 2001, when Microsoft got away with a slap in the wrist after the Netscape thing. The big players of 2020 are entrenched much deeper and are much more in bed with the regulators, so it will take longer to level off.

I am also suspecting that the level-off will happen one layer higher. I.e. the economic relevance of the current incumbents within the US economy will not drop, but the global relevance of the US will. For a perspective, you can look at the German economy that is dominated by companies founded 100+ years ago.

very, very true

This: am also suspecting that the level-off will happen one layer higher. I.e. the economic relevance of the current incumbents within the US economy will not drop, but the global relevance of the US will. For a perspective, you can look at the German economy that is dominated by companies founded 100+ years ago.

Because US government is getting in bed with Amazon, Google, Facebook

it is causing a double effect

A) They are letting them keep growing their monopolies in return for surveillance of Americans and non Americans

Which makes them stronger

B) US innovation is slowing down

For Example: Now most of US technology is around showing ads, surveillance, and basically treating people like stupid ATMs

They might be able to make it work for another 10 to 30 years, and then there will be big breakdowns

A good example is what is happening to Amazon in countries like China and India

Replacing one set of abusive tax-shirking anticompetitive monopolies with another isn't progress.

> It will be too expensive for local retailers to carry them.

How is this any different than any other company being put out of business because someone does it better cheaper or faster?

Would you have said the same about automobiles putting out of work people who work in and around horses and replacing them en masse?

Candle makers when oil came out?

Oil lamp makers when electricity csme out?

> about the way Amazon treats its employees - warehouse and office

You have no data on how others treat their workers vs. Amazon. Amazon is almost certainly way better than a local smaller type company paying less less benefits and so on. They have modern warehouses not the crap that is typically out there. I have worked in my earlier years in one of those. Nobody is forced to work at Amazon it's not the military where you are drafted. And you will always have a small amount of people saying they are driven to hard and outlier situations (bosses and supervisors). Nothing is perfect. Small about of people dissatisfied creates a large amount of noise.

> Amazon will control distribution and supply.

Ok so this happens and then if they get 'to big for their britches' it opens up for others to nip away at what they do (craigslist as an example maybe?).

> That is not a future I want so I put up with the inconveniences of not support Amazon

Your choice of course. I don't think of buying from Amazon as me 'supporting' them. I think of it as being able to get what I need for a reasonable price and very convenient. There are things I can order that I can have later in the afternoon and no hassle returns. Very generally I mean sometimes things are wrong but generally as we all know and judging by the business they are getting they did build a better mousetrap.

Guess what? I know they will raise pricing and I don't even care. I often pay them more just for the security of the ordering and convenience and certainty. Not everything is price price price.

This is already happening for some products, especially small hardware manufacturers I think. For example, I live in Switzerland and wanted to order a product from vanamco.com and since they let Amazon handle all the logistics, this is what they replied:

"Thanks for reaching out. Unfortunately, we are not able to ship to Switzerland from our EU Amazon warehouse. [...]"

The most incredible thing is that this is a company based in Switzerland...

Before the pandemic, I never thought twice about ordering from Amazon. However, shipping now takes 2-3x as long. It's faster to order from most any other website.

After learning about how they treat their workers (including tech workers) I try to avoid ordering from Amazon as well.

ebay is great, but you have to watch out for people selling on ebay why are just arbitraging from amazon

Add in that no one can build an ecommerce website without strong web services its almost impossible for another ecommerce company to come in compete with them. Amazon is a monopoly.

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