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> I am optimistic that these kinds of devices will get more people on two-wheeled personal transportation but I’m concerned about the people going 30mph on bike paths or riding in the road with no education.

At 20MPH your turbo assist turns off completely leaving the rider in this weird state where 1MPH slower is easy and 1MPH faster is brutal. If you are going 30MPH anywhere on this, it's because you are a world-class cyclist or are going downhill.

People ride on roads with no education all the time, we call them drivers. People going 20MPH on a 30 pound bike aren't dangerous to others. People surfing the web while driving a 6 ton truck are dangerous to everyone.

> Tangentially I’m disappointed that electric drive has translated to “no rules” on roads and bike paths.

This is literally every form of transportation. There were no/ terrible rules around cars when they came out as well.

Two stroke mopeds are not new but I do not see them on bike paths. I do see them in the road. e-bikes that comply with the existing laws have similar capabilities to mopeds yet people ride them on bike paths.

Another dimension of this phenomenon is electric cars. Teslas are somehow synonymous with "self-driving" even though they could have the same capabilities with gas motors.

Somehow electric motors are translating to "new rules" even though we have existing rules that apply.

> At 20MPH your turbo assist turns off completely leaving the rider in this weird state where 1MPH slower is easy and 1MPH faster is brutal. If you are going 30MPH anywhere on this, it's because you are a world-class cyclist or are going downhill.

A buddy of mine bought an e-bike this summer that can go 30mph for 30 miles. I see bikes like this on the local bike path regularly.

> People ride on roads with no education all the time, we call them drivers. People going 20MPH on a 30 pound bike aren't dangerous to others. People surfing the web while driving a 6 ton truck are dangerous to everyone.

What? Where can you drive a car without taking a driving test and getting a license?

30lb bikes going 20mph are absolutely a threat to pedestrians.

Inattentive drivers are dangerous but that's entirely irrelevant to this conversation outside of it being a reason people are scared to ride their electric motorcycles in the road.

> What? Where can you drive a car without taking a driving test and getting a license?

In the US, driving instruction is basic, and easy to pass and most people have long forgotten it. Trying to suggest they are "Educated" is ridiculous.

> 30lb going 20mph bikes are absolutely a threat to pedestrians.

Absolute nonsense. The number of pedestrians injured each year by cyclists is tiny, likely zero most years. eBikes don't change this because fundamentally. Cyclists (acoustic or electric) are much more alert than car drivers because if you aren't alert on a bike you get smashed by someone in a car. Cyclists don't hit pedestrians out of self preservation. Hit a pedestrian and it's going to fucking hurt. People in cars hit pedestrians without even noticing.

The hurdle for driving is far beyond the hurdle for cycling. The hurdle for riding a motorcycle is even more difficult than driving a car.

Yes, roads are dangerous. This is my point.

30lb bicycles weigh a lot more than 30lb when you put riders on them. The energies involved can and do injure people.

> Absolute nonsense. The number of pedestrians injured each year by cyclists is tiny, likely zero most years.

No. Here are some statistics from the UK in 2018 because they’re the first Google result. Cycling is wonderful and is a net benefit to communities. Trying to claim there are no injuries caused to pedestrians by cyclists is just silly.

——————

Figures published by the Department for Transport (DfT) show that 531 people were involved in collisions with cyclists in 2017, up by 15 per cent in 12 months. The accident rate was higher than at any time since at least 2013 when the statistics were first published. More than 120 pedestrians were seriously hurt in collisions with bikes last year and three were killed, the figures show.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/calls-for-new-law-as-cycl...

Class 1 ebikes go no faster than an athletic cyclist would (20mph), and most bike lanes / paths are restricted to those.

Another gambit I've seen that tends to moderate my speed on an ebike is a "green wave" tuned for 13mph. No point going any faster.

Sure but where I live there is precisely zero enforcement of speed or capability. You also have to consider the effect of adding orders of magnitude more “athletic riders” to bike paths. Especially when the new riders are new to the speeds. And when pedestrians are used to having fast cyclists ride in the road, which is the norm here.

Ebikes are nothing short of a menace on my local bike path.

If the path is mixed with pedestrians, 20mph on a bicycle is irresponsible whether peddling or ebiking.

If there are pedestrians it’s a sidewalk, not a bike path, and a bike should not be on it at all unless the rider has dismounted.

Almost all cycling paths around my area are mixed bicycle/pedestrian.

So there are no cycling paths in your area.

That's completely irrelevant. Some cycling paths in my area are mixed pedestrian and cycle. Mostly they are mixed car and cycle. There are a handful of dedicated bike paths but those often have pedestrians on them anyway. Good luck changing that.

The semantics of "bike path" are not interesting here. I ride my bike at around 8mph. I don't pass many conventional bicycles. I don't get passed by conventional cycles much either. When I do it is often by someone on an e-bike going twice as fast.

I think we were raised in very different cycling cultures. I was taught to be embarrassed at much less than 15mph under my own power. Being lazy, I usually rode closer to 11-12 when alone, and the only slower bikes I encountered were small children. Many athletic cyclists zoomed by at 20-25.

I was also taught to assert my right of way when I have it, and be deferential when I don’t. So the designation of the path does matter.

It also sounds like you guys exist in different areas. The situation you're completely against is the status quo in Seattle.

Yeah see, that's why there are bike lanes in the street too. If you want to travel at traffic speeds join traffic. Ebikes are great for this.

Instead people ride ebikes at 20+mph within feet (or inches!) of pedestrians. While hardcore cyclists are in the street dodging cars.

You're describing fantasy.

This is ignorant. My local bike path is combined and separated and alternates between the two. There's also a bike lane in the road. There's also the practical fact that people walk in bike lanes anyway. Riding a motorcycle in that environment is going to increase risk.

Spaces where bicycles have right of way and spaces where bicycles are permitted to tread gingerly around other, higher-priority users are completely different things. Calling such a pedestrian path a bike path is like calling a bus lane or a truck loading zone with sharrows in it a bike lane.

You’re ignoring reality. There is a dedicated bike path that I ride every day with painted bicycles on the path and a separate sidewalk next to it with grass between. There are always people walking on the bike path. This is even understandable with covid, people are trying to keep their distance.

There are also people on ebikes going faster than everyone, swerving between the bike path and the sidewalk.

It’s unfortunate that people don’t respect bike paths where you live, and I hope it improves. The dedicated cycling spaces where I live see only occasional intruders and, while I would never hit one, neither do I feel obligated to make them feel welcome where they aren’t.

Yes, it is unfortunate. But my city is very bicycle friendly so there is a lot to be thankful for. Also even with pedestrians on the bike paths everything mostly works out fine. Assuming speeds are human powered.

I am optimistic that if we embrace ebikes as motorcycles and advertise their ability to keep up with and even get around traffic we can enjoy the benefits provided to the rest of the high density world.

Amercian cities are incredibly wasteful with space. Single individuals in cars, it’s ridiculous. In Asia I have seen mothers with children on scooters. Everyone rides a motorcycle.

We need that in our cities and I think ebikes can help get us there.

In 49 states motorcycles are required to sit in traffic, not go around it. In all 50 states motorcycles are required to consume the same parking footprint as SUVs. I think ebike adoption depends on the ability to use bike lanes and bike racks, both of which would go away under a motorcycle designation, so I can't agree. Same goal though.

In my state motorcycles can share parking spaces. That’s covered in the class. Education is critical to responsibly operate a motor vehicle.

Lane filtering laws need to change, that’s my point. I say we can get there with more people on electric motorcycles.

There’s obvious demand, the problem is people who ride electric motorcycles on bike paths. They’re giving ebikes a bad name.

This could be our generation’s “You meet the nicest people on a Honda.”

I have zero confidence in anything changing though. The only people more insufferable than car drivers are cyclists. Trying to have a conversation with anyone about this is like debating politics at thanksgiving.

> These are mopeds at best. Electric motorcycles at worst.

These are very far from that. This LeMond ebike has a 250W motor. Any moderately strong cyclist can put out more than 250W. Very strong riders can do double that. And the motor assists cut off at 20mph.

Even a weak cyclist like me (~180W FTP) can trivially do 20mph on a regular bike if the trail is flat so that's hardly a high speed.

Ebikes are awesome. We need more of them. But we need to treat them like what they are, motorcycles.

My first moped topped out at 25mph and that was only on flat ground. I never even considered riding it on a bike path.

Most cyclists on bike paths are not going 20+ mph without breaking a sweat for 20-30 miles like these ebikes do.

People are going to get hurt and it will do further damage to the already tarnished reputation of two wheeled personal transport in the US.

Ebikes in Europe are limited to 250W and electric power cuts off above 25km/h (15.5mph). Ebikes don't act differently than normal bikes on the road/path. They go the same type of speed, and they are silent. They're not scooters.

I don't live in Europe. My buddy has an ebike that can go 30mph for 30 miles. I see the same model on the bike path at least a few times a week, often at high speed.

The rules are irrelevant to capability.

I do own a European car, it is happy to go 120mph on the highway, even if that's not legal anywhere in my country.

Different ebikes land in different regulatory classifications. Your buddy's "ebike" is legally a moped (US). Class 3 ebikes can only assist up to 28 mph. The people riding that model on bike paths that do not permit mopeds are breaking the law, just as if they rode any other moped on that path.

Yes, I know. That’s my point.

The classification doesn’t matter, perception does. What we need is more adoption. That’s less likely when people ride like jerks.

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood your earlier comment.