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Comment by scoot | Hacker News Reader

What does "classical" mean in this context? My benchmark for the term "classical" is traditional European classical music, and so I'm having a hard time understanding where this fits in the Indian musical spectrum, either stylistically or temporally.

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Classical in the sense that this is a tradition of sufficient vintage, backed by a theory of music. There are at least 2 distinct systems of Indian music which are called classical.

1. Carnatic - the south Indian classical music. Traditionally Purandara Dasa is supposed to be the originator, from around the 13th century. This came up in the Vijayanagar empire. But there are older composers like Vyasa Raya whose compositions are still popular.(1)

2. Hindustani - the north Indian classical music, origins attributed to Amir Khusro, around 12-13 century.(2)

There are older musical systems, for example, Sopana system in Kerala. (3)

Moreover, instruments like the Veena (the Indian lute) are much older, as can be attested from Gupta era paintings (6th century A.D.), so it is possible that a lot of the history is now lost. (4)

The ragas are arranged in a combinatorial manner, roughly, out of 12 notes, how many harmonious combinations can be made? (5)

Related: combinatorics was used in prosody, in addition to music: One of the earliest occurrenc of the Pascal's triangle is in Indian prosody. (6)

(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnatic_music

(2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustani_classical_music

(3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sopana_Sangeetham

(4) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veena

(5) https://cs.uwaterloo.ca/journals/JIS/VOL5/Balasubramanian/ba...

(6) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_triangle#History

wow

Thank you for that. I learned something.

Thank you for this excellent post.

There is also a semi-classical genre evolved from musical dramas. Sadly it is not mainstream anymore.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangeet_Natak

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdlLqzs9LKk

There is an interesting form of performance called Jugalbandi where different artists perform duet (mostly without rehearsal).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugalbandi

Another rare video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk60ObnbIOk

In a very old interview, Eduard Artemyev, one of the pioneers of electronic music, says how Jugalbandi inspired his soundtrack of the sci-fi movie Stalker (1). I think it is the Stalker meditation theme, which distinctly has a Persian oud/tar like effect (2).

(1) https://youtu.be/xjVT7MlE5rY?t=629s

(2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP1QXKbhqr4

I didn't expect to see Artemiev mentioned here. Great soviet composer and his "Meditation" is a very fitting track for the movie. Amazing blend of electronic and eastern traditional music. I didn't watch the whole video, but I don't think he mentioned Jugalbandi. The musician he asked to play for this track used to play mugams according to Eduard's words, perhaps that's why they say it resembles a certain mugam: Bayat Shiraz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrfGR70Y_YY

Edit: The use of this mugam by Artemiev is mentioned in the wikipedia page https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0%B0%D1%8F%D1%82%D1%8B...

Origins of north Indian classical are much more complicated than attributing to any single person. There is the Samaveda of antiquity with its puritanical emphasis on metre along with a simplistic sense of melody. Dhrupad sung in the courts of Delhi during the Mughal times can probably be regarded as the next attested continuation in that tradition. During the 17-18th century Dhrupad underwent another renaissance and the form of Khayal emerged. One which gave the musician more creative freedom of expression. A large part of what is considered mainstream North Indian classical music today is Khayal.

P.S: Amir Khusrao's role in development of Qawwali, Tarana and other forms of Islamic Sufi music making sounds plausible. Anything beyond that is venturing into speculation.

I think a good rule of thumb for any society's "classical" music is "what do the cultural elites coalesce around" - so in western society the political, business, and academic elites go and be elite-y at the symphony or the opera.

In India "educated" or "learned" people will be intimately familiar with many of "raags/ragas" which can be thought of as "tunes" (but they are deeper than that). These ragas are usually meant to be played at different times of day/year or to evoke certain moods. Players will improvise these raags, interpreting not only their "version" of the song, but custom jamming a version specifically for that place and time and audience. Some of these raags have a very long history. I think when people talk about "classical" Indian music this is what they mean. Temporary it's deeply historical music that is constantly evolving.

I'm generalizing and glossing over so much to be brief, and much of this varies by region and tradition, but that's a gist.

In addition to what you've said about the eliteness, it's also music around which a rigorous theoretical system has developed.

This is on contrast to folk music, which focuses less on theory.

In India, which just as in the west, development of the theory was aided by the patronage of the wealthy/elite.

Also as in the west the theoretical system serves the purposes of preservation, reproducibility, and most of all, pedagogy.

Its interesting that in the "long history" of some of these raags, many have moved from folk into the classical realm. To name a few - Mand, Khamaj, Desh. There is also the diffusion of some classical ragas into wider collective conscience through film music, and other forms of "light" music.

When I wanted to learn about Indian classical music, I was pointed to the youtube channel of Anuja Kamat [1]. Disclaimer: I haven't watched enough to present an informed opinion as of yet.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs6OTIFV53Z-EGT84lxTvqQ

Anuja does a fantastic job of explaining a lot of Indian classical music in layman’s terms. Brilliant channel, highly recommended!

Thanks! From what I've watched so far, she's wonderfully engaging and enthusiastic about the subject.

There are many people who think that the term "classical" does not apply to South Asian music of this form, because it is still being actively created and practiced. And while the style of this music has evolved quite a bit, new instruments introduced, the essential features have not gone away.

This music is also not written down (intentionally, I might add), so while roughly the same forms have been practiced for 100s of years, most of what is remembered and played is from the past 150 years or so. You can call this era classical, if you will.

You may wish to check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_classical_music

Indian classical music, especially carnatic has a tremendous amount of music theory. I highly recommend T.M. Krishna's "A Southern Music: The Karnatik Story"[0] or this strangeloop talk [1]

[0] - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20320205-a-southern-musi...

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9CGcusOz60

Classical in general means music from 1800 period in Europe but you can easily imagine other cultures having their own music from older era that's termed as "Classical".

The meaning of "classical" with a lowercase 'c' refers to elite music with theory built around it from any culture; most people are not referring to the "Classical" with a capital 'C' period of European culture.

I think the term "court music" is more clear

A lot of classical music is also temple (or church) music.

Classical in Indian music is more a genre than music that was created in a certain time period. Not sure if that’s the same with European classical music.

My definition of classical music is “always contemporary’

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