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Comment by stevepotter | Hacker News Reader

I work at AWS now and can second that. Nobody is happy when things break, but COEs are looked a positively and are circulated constantly to prevent repeats.

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Not at AWS, retail Amazon, but what I saw was COEs were either normal business process or PIP material depending on which org you worked for. And sometimes just the excuse to get you gone.

Where I was about 99.9% of the COEs where just a lesson learned and new process to prevent it. There was one that was basically used as a tool to remove a VERY good engineer, that didn't mesh well with new leadership.

A sister org, one I worked a lot with, wouldn't COE anything. If you were the lead engineer on a product or service that had a COE you were going to get a PIP by year end review. I wasn't surprised when all the talent left that group.

What is PIP?

Performance Improvement Plan. Basically 'this is what you need to improve if you want to keep working here.'

Lots of people bad at their jobs blame the PIP system for their failure at Amazon.

Most likely, Performance Improvement Plan

Amazon fires between 5-15% of engineers per year. PIP is to get you to quit. Amazon hires a TON of entry level SDE 1 engineers to sacrifice at the altar of Bezos so more shitty employees get to stay. Lifespan of a SDE 1 whipping boy/girl at Amazon, as a result is 3-6 months.

Only the strong survive:p

Shit floats :p

Worse, only the greasy sleezy turds float.

I just snaked my sewage pipe. Can confirm this to be true

Performance Improvement Plan, they are not unique to Amazon, most places have them though the process may differ. Not to be too cynical but ultimately they’re a way to document that you’re not meeting expectations - before being fired. Should there be any sort of employment claim later its a mechanism by which an employer can show documentation that any issues related to your being let go were performance related and not some sort of protected status or prejudice.

Outside of someone protected by a labor union, I’ve very rarely seen anyone recover from a PIP and not be eventually let go. Most commonly employees see them as a 30 or 60 day window to proactively find a new job before they’re terminated.

I think the reason they don’t work is because someone doesn’t just magically become a better employee over two months.

I think that's a bit simplistic. I've had coworkers that became better employees over time. The "problem" with PIPs is by the time you've screwed up long enough to be put on a PIP everyone knows there's no turning back.

For example, a friend I have that recently left Facebook knew for a good 6 months he needed to shape up. But they hadn't put him on a PIP in that time. They eventually offered him a decent severance to quit, and he took that rather than continuing to try. If he stayed, he probably would have been put on a PIP fairly shortly. It was the best thing for everyone. He wasn't all that happy there anyways.

Performance Improvement Plan. In theory, it sounds like a plan to fix your supposedly inadequate performance. In practice, like 99% of the time it means somebody decided to fire you for some reason before you have even seen the first one, and they're just creating documentation for why they fired you to head off HR requirements and any future complaints. They'll run you through a few rounds of supposedly evaluating your improvements as inadequate and eventually fire you, unless you quit first.

PIP : Performance Improvement Plan

I assume this to mean that it is an element of an individual's PIP, a formal process to set guides for getting someone to commit to a higher level of achievement.

While on its face PIP is a guide to getting someone to commit to a higher level of improvement, for many companies its a formal warning that you need to shape up or you're going to be let go.

> for many companies its a formal warning that you need to shape up or you're going to be let go.

Patently incorrect. A PIP is management telling you that you need to seek alternative employment, now.

Joking/sarcasm aside: I’ve never seen or heard someone who is placed on a PIP successfully “exit” the PIP. They exit the company or they’re exited from the company. PIPs seem to mark the start of the “we are building formal documentation to fire you” phase of losing a job.

ya i agree.

I got PIP'ed and actually fixed the problem I had and resolved the PIP. The problem was that I would mis-ship items sometimes in a warehouse. I figured out that I couldn't reliably read some of the product labels, so I went to go get an eye exam. Apparently I had 20/100 vision in one eye due to astigmatism. Getting glasses meant that I quit fucking up, so they dropped the PIP and moved me into another part of the company.

I guess I'm the poster child for having vision insurance as a company benefit.

that made me feel good, thanks

Was it management's decision to move you or yours? If it was theirs', it seems like management didn't have confidence you could improve once the problem was found and fixed. Kinda like changing two things at a time when troubleshooting. How did you feel about that?

It was mine. An opening appeared in the service department and I applied for it.

Thanks for replying :)

Wow, I didn't know pickers and stowers got PIPs. Obviously you did a smart thing in that you went and got a medical diagnosis. The company would be facing a medical disability lawsuit if they followed through with the PIP/firing.

A lawyer I spoke with suggested employees regularly visit their doctor about work related stress so that when they inevitably get PIP'ed they can claim medical leave and work related illness. Some places its a war zone and that's what workers have to do.

I was a warehouse clerk which meant I was responsible for picking stowing, receiving, shipping and organizing the warehouse.

> I’ve never seen or heard someone who is placed on a PIP successfully “exit” the PIP

I have and at Amazon and AWS. The pattern I have seen is medical related. Someone is on some sort of medication that is screwing with their abilities and don't realize it. I've seen multiple cases: one where it was meds that caused liver problems and the person didn't know they were supposed to get regularly testing (crappy doctor) and another where they found out meds they were on caused short-term memory loss. These surfaced during the PIPs and were fixed - and the folks got out fine.

Not Amazon but at an HR/leader meeting our HR disclosed 45% of people on PIPs end up staying with the company.

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