It's good that you and I both live in countries like that; but, in some countries, you report your bribes on taxes, they're so common.
From the other comments in this thread, it's suggesting that the CCW permit process in California is very bad and broken and these bribes have been an illegal method of actually getting CCW permits.
By the way Apples head of security isn’t the only one. Nanci Pelosi has had a CCW for a long time while simultaneously fighting to suppress gun ownership in her own city and state.
While I agree it sucks that some rich and powerful people seem to live by a different set of rules, it's not like she had a permit just for kicks.
I wasn't debating the merits of the CA shall issue policy.
In other words, don't pick a fight where there isn't one.
No one was arguing otherwise. The comments you were replying to were clearly about the hypocrisy of anti-gun politicians.
> In other words, don't pick a fight where there isn't one.
Indeed.
But I’m not rich and powerful, so.
I recall Sherif telling my dad if he shot someone, to make sure the body was in the house pointing toward the inside. That way he wouldn’t be arrested.
So we were under constant assault, and if we tried to defend ourselves we had to make sure everything was “perfect” so as not to get arrested.
Complete insanity.
Moved away as fast as possible.
I’m not allowed to defend myself. At least not with a big check list to ensure I don’t goto jail.
I recall advise like keep a bat and glove in car at all times. Glove is the “reason” you have something to defend yourself with.
Nonsense games to protect yourself because some Pampered people don’t think you should be allowed to.
Show me the incentives and I will show you the outcome.
Can you give any examples of those countries? Countries with high amount of bribing tend to also be countries with large off-the-record economies, therefore I am skeptical of that proposition.
FYI in the US, you can claim tax deductibility on bribes paid in foreign countries iff they are not legally classified as bribes in the respective local laws.
> Can you give any examples of those countries?
Germany used to be like this, but it they changed the law many years ago. I don't know if there are any such countries remaining. The article below is from 1995, when bribes were still tax-deductible.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/1995-08-06/germany-w...
Extortion is mainly demanded from businesses, but local residents may also have to pay “taxes” or renta to access their homes. No business sector is spared, and goods and professional services may be demanded instead of, or in addition to money. Large businesses and transport operators have dedicated employees to negotiate extortion fees, which are built into >their financial models. Implicit risk starts as soon as someone is targeted to pay, and it rises if they are unable to pay or the renta charged increases. Those who refuse to pay are killed.
https://www.internal-displacement.org/sites/default/files/in...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Ac...
> Regarding payments to foreign officials, the act draws a distinction between bribery and facilitation or "grease payments", which may be permissible under the FCPA, but may still violate local laws. The primary distinction is that grease payments or facilitation payments are made to an official to expedite his performance of the routine duties he is already bound to perform.
Such a payment is considered a grease payment (and not a bribe), which is lawful under FCPA.
(Looks like they're Australian: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25194634)
https://www.ag.gov.au/system/files/2020-09/factsheet-2-the-f...
Upon giving it a little more thought it turns out that only 2 of the top 10 oil companies are American. So, yeah, my bad.
It was an absurd experience. The training material kept repeating that I absolutely could not bribe a non-US official. However, in my country ALL officials are non-US and bribery is also illegal so what were they trying to tell me with this "non-US" criterion?
The message I got from training course is that bribery is bad (I knew that), bribery is illegal (I knew that) but it's okay if I bribe a US official (really?).
So a new captain comes on board and first port they get in he refuses to do this - they refuse to let them in the port - they were out at sea without resupply 20 days and running out of food... the company had to fly in a different captain to relieve this guy and he told me by day 2 weeks in they were already joking around how the captain could have an accident ...
Well at one point he went on about thanking local government officials, and that he would be sure to give them gifts for approving the project.
The translator wisely left that part out.
Confused, the CEO later asked why, then was shocked to learn that bribery is a bad thing in America.
Google Fu is weak, so haven’t been able to find the original source. (May have been a Japanese language book)
Well. At least openly talking about it.
Pretending it doesn't work in Americaa is ostrich syndrome. Just the first google result to prove my point. https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-10-22/tr...
In many countries everyone has to pay a facilitation fee (aka bribe) for routine govt actions.
These are for things like:
obtaining permits, licenses, or other official documents to qualify a person to do business in a foreign country; processing governmental papers, such as visas and work orders; providing police protection, mail pickup and delivery, or scheduling inspections associated with contract performance or inspections related to transit of goods across country; providing phone service, power and water supply, loading and unloading cargo, or protecting perishable products or commodities from deterioration; etc
How in the WORLD to folks giving legal advice here not have even this basic understanding of the law?
But also, it seems like it's a bit of a grey area:
"As a general principle of the Foreign Corrupt Practises Act (FCPA), in the United States, firms and businesses in the US are prohibited from making any payments to foreign officials for routine governmental action. However, any payment that does not effect the decision of the foreign official is not considered a bribe. For example, a businessman in the States may make a payment to a government official to expedite a deal or transaction. Such a payment is considered a grease payment (and not a bribe), which is lawful under FCPA.
In this regard, it becomes necessary to understand when an amount paid turns from a grease payment to a bribe, which is illegal under law. This is a grey area under the law which is still to be clarified. There are numerous factors that could play a role in demarcation between the two, which include: the amount of payment, the frequency of the payment, the status/level of the foreign official to whom the payment has been made, the outcome of the case regarding which the payment was made, etc."[1]
The training at my company is pretty strict about never making any "grease payments", so certainly there's some doubt.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Practices_Act#...
Can I ask if you are an attorney - because this is absolutely 100% false. You are spreading misinformation here.
If your employer fires you for paying a facilitation fee to advance a routine govt action or travel then you should absolutely sue them.
From the usual IANAL crowd: "I saw it on the internet, so it must be true."
And if you're an actual lawyer, internet rules dictate that anything you know is trumped by a Wikipedia link.
Or, perhaps it's that those editors who distort other areas of the wiki to fit their political biases aren't interested in law. It could be either or both (or neither, but I'm biased towards myself;)
Like issuing a concealed-carry permit to a non-felon ex-Navy corporate executive.
OP describes a ransom, not a bribe. Charge the govt official who demanded the ransom, not the citizen entrapped in the scheme.
The sheriff deputies fucked up. The CCW applicants fucked up. Everyone got caught and everyone is going to suffer the consequences.
Whether it's legal or illegal is almost aside the point, someone can choose between either breaking some arcane, unenforced US law, or potentially spending months/years in some hellhole of a third-world jail or prison while the Embassy slowly negotiates a release. And in some places, that's assuming someone doesn't just "disappear" or get robbed and shot on the spot.
It'd often be better to get fired and federally charged than to risk what your company advocates. In a worst case scenario, at least you know what you're getting, at least you'll have competent legal defense, and at least there will be a high -- virtually unprovable -- standard of evidence required for a federal jury to indict.
That would be conspiracy. No, absolutely this does not happen. Now, at the micro level it does happen that individual executives rope their employees in to fraud at their direction. But absoutely no "company" anywhere "advises" its employees to pay bribes as a matter of policy.
> What is the Difference Between Bribery and Facilitation Payments?
> Facilitation payments are different from bribes in that they’re offered or solicited in return for a service a person or a company is entitled to receive. In contrast, bribes are offered in return for undue and illegal advantage. [0]
Do we know if these executives were deserving of the CCP? It would appear they were, from the post’s link:
> Sung—second in rank only to Sheriff Laurie Smith in the sheriff’s office—is accused of deliberately holding back four concealed carry weapons (CCW) permits for Apple’s security team until the Cupertino-based corporation agreed to donate 200 iPads worth about $75,000 to the Sheriff’s Office, Rosen said. Sung and Jensen allegedly worked together to solicit the exchange of CCW permits for the tech donation from Apple.
The much larger corruption seems to be on the LEO side to me. Which of the two actors swore an oath to uphold the law?
If it wasn’t for clickbait, the headline would focus on the LEO.
[0] https://www.ganintegrity.com/compliance-glossary/facilitatio...
There's little difference between bribes and highway banditry in some places, and not playing along will very likely not end well for you.
Recourse in cases of abuses of power is already hit-and-miss in so-called "civilized" countries. I wouldn't count on it in countries that can't even agree on who's in charge somewhere.
It's one thing to be a boy scout, but it's another entirely to get accused of severe, frivolous charges while abroad, or to drive up to an armed cartel/militant roadblock, and then say "I'm sorry, bribes are against corporate policy and illegal in my country" when asked for $50.
Shame on any company for creating a clause like that and risking their employees lives instead of just remaining silent on the matter. Make no mistake, bribery isn't optional in many parts of the world, it's a robbery by a uniformed official.
A bribe needed to get a lucrative contract for your company: not ok.
Paying off a local cop so he won't throw you in jail for no reason: totally ok.
The US is concerned with preventing the former, not the latter. I would be surprised if any US company is advocating people pay the first kind of bribe, at least publicly, as that's quite illegal in the US (I'm sure it happens, but as quietly as possible). But I would not be surprised if US companies tell employees to pay the second kind of bribe, as well they should.
Courtside tickets to an NBA game? Not okay.
"Your vehicle does not have the permits. You need to come with me" at gunpoint in sub-Saharan Africa? That's a matter of life and death, potentially.
So lets dial back the absolutes, huh?
Then we get pulled over in Mexico with a VP with us and it's a totally different reality on the ground.
Most companies want you to pay the cop to not take you to jail on fake charges.
The don't want you to pay the M. Resources (or at least not officially).
International Conglomerates keep 'Sunshine Funds' - i.e. money off the regular books in overseas accounts for this activity.
It's part of doing business in 1/2 the countries around the world, literally impossible to do business without it.
jbuzbee is referring to international travel training you go through if you apply to travel to/through a "red"/"restricted" country. They are not referring to the generic "don't take a bribe for a contract" training.
Not always. If the local laws don't classify it legally as bribe you can pay it and even claim it on your taxes as cost of doing business.
However, if you need to pay a "facilitation fee" to exit the country (called routine govt action) that is not about securing business or getting a competitive advantage such as a customs waiver, then paying the fee may be permitted (for a number of reasons).
What I think US folks don't realize is some dept's overseas basically pay their staff through these unofficial fees, they set some rates for service, but nothing goes through treasury and no enabling legislation exists. But they also don't get money from their treasury to operate (or its stolen by folks above them) so that's how they keep operating.
In Russia prior to USSR, facilitation fees is how all officials earned money, that was the official policy. That's only 100 years ago that is was not even considered corruption / bribery. Obviously that disease is still festering in Russia and the country as a whole is paying a grave toll for it.
Lastly, do keep in mind that as a local you can probably tell is a payment can be declined withoit repercussions, but as a foreigner you don't really know.
"Call Legal if the police officer in Nicaragua is threatening to throw you in jail without arrest until you give him cash" is a reasonably sure way to put yourself at further risk/in grave peril.
It will take one person dying because of this policy for apple to be sued to hell and back.
Oh so they are stuck somewhere during a business trip? In that case, they would contact their company for assistance.
Alternatively, it's just a job. The penalties tend to go as far as firing the employee. If it's a life and death situation that's an ok outcome. I mean, if we insist in discussing these convoluted scenarios...
American Express GBT, BCD Travel, CWT, FCM Travel, they all offer it. It's usually expensed as "Consulting" or "Advisory", however never separated in invoiced line-items.
Every single large tech organisation has made lip-service commitments publicly to not accept bribes, but also operate in countries where it's the absolute norm. How is that handled? Through an intermediary.
Tomato, tohmahtoh
I used to work for a company with a similar policy and training. "Airport tax" was how it was expensed, even if you weren't flying.
Especially if said person is an LEO in a country famous for above-the-law LEOs.
Principles are easy to have from the safety of a keyboard. How many of us would keep them in a real world situation?
If the sheriff said gimme the iPads or I'll blow your brains out, that's another story. But I guess that's not what happened here.
FWIW, it would be just as bad of a look if instead the head of security’s wife was engaged in this scheme at her own workplace. And Apple would be 100% correct to still terminate their relationship for fear of bad press
Your question is difficult to answer, but I ask in return: Is a general propensity to engage in an act sufficient to excuse it?
I will concede that "every person has their price". At some point we cross the line from "asking for a bribe" to "engaging in extortion" to "direct threats of violence".
Moyer ran the ethics and business conduct programs. Is there an expectation that someone in that position does have a durable set of principles, and a price higher than a CCW permit?
The appropriate consequences for the involved parties are, of course, along completely different ethical lines.
>> But this isn't that.