Comment by interestica | Hacker News Reader

Comment by interestica | Hacker News Reader

> It is believed that a combination of genetic and environmental factors, such as pesticides and pollution, may cause Parkinson’s; Fox later learned that at least four cast members of Leo & Me, a Canadian TV show he starred in as a teenager, also developed early-onset Parkinson’s. “But believe it or not, that’s not enough people to be defined as a cluster, so there hasn’t been much research into that. But it is interesting. I can think of a thousand possible scenarios: I used to go fishing in a river near paper mills and eat the salmon I caught; I’ve been to a lot of farms; I smoked a lot of pot in high school when the government was poisoning the crops. But you can drive yourself crazy trying to figure it out.”

Completely unfounded speculation, but I always wondered what the effect of the absolutely grueling schedule of simultaneously filming Family Ties and Back to the Future was. (Sleeping in cars, working til 7am, just a couple hours of sleep a night).

> Gale said that Fox's youth meant he could cope with less sleep than usual. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_to_the_Future#Filming_wit...)

They'd already filmed half the movie and brought Fox in as the replacement. With so much on the line, did he take more than just coffee to keep going? Drug-induced 'Parkinsonism' is a thing. Having it progress like typical Parkinson's is rare, but it happens. (https://www.parkinsons.org.uk/information-and-support/types-...).

Sleep Disturbance as Potential Risk and Progression Factor for Parkinson’s Disease

Emerging evidence from the field of Alzheimer’s disease (AD) research implicates sleep quality as an important factor underlying risk and disease progression in this disorder [2, 3]. There is also evidence that the presence of sleep disturbances may increase the risk of developing PD.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6700634/

Edit:

The mechanism is even partially established. Serious sleep deprivation is known to elevate the levels of two proteins that are known to be risk factors for certain kinds of dementia, one of which is Tau (I don't recall the other):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6360494/

I guess i would say it doesn’t really matter how it happened.

His foundation has been working for decades to help find a cure:

https://www.michaeljfox.org/

Andy Grove (Intel) died from Parkinson’s too:

https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0128/070.html?sh=252b9495...

Linda Ronstadt and Ozzy Osbourne are a couple of other famous people with it.

It's a small miracle that Ozzy Osbourne is still alive at the age of 71 at all, considering his decades of alcohol and drug abuse were wild and excessive even by "sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll" standards. He maxed out on constitution during character creation.

He wrote a book about it (Trust Me, I'm Dr. Ozzy).

He basically says "don't do like I did".

> I guess i would say it doesn’t really matter how it happened.

Maybe not on an individual level, but if it was (for example) the salmon near the factory then that might affect thousands of people and it would be important to stop this at the source.

Tangentially related: I recently learned from a YT interview with James Burke that modern epidemiology was born when John Snow identified the true cause of the 1854 Broad Street cholera outbreak using statistics and an accidental double-blind experiment set-up[0][1].

So I do understand Fox' bewilderment that five people from the same set developing Parkinson's disease is not considered worthy of follow-up research.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUb6Sv-rUv0&t=13m23s

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1854_Broad_Street_cholera_outb...

Hrrm, interesting theory:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/12/051214084800.h...

"Adults who abuse cocaine might increase their risk of developing Parkinson's disease"

It wouldn't be too far out to imagine a young Hollywood star in the 80s might abuse illegal drugs to stay awake.

It seems to me it's of poor taste to accuse someone sick and doing everything they can to help awareness about a disease of abusing cocaine.

Yea, I agree with you. And even if he did, he’s not undeserving of compassion.

In the article he mentions using illegal drugs and how quitting drinking may have saved his marriage. Do you think it's really that crazy that a young beginning-to-rise star living in Los Angeles in the 80s and under incredible pressure to perform without sleep used something to stay awake? It's not a condemnation.

> It's not a condemnation.

FWIW I'm inferring from the post you replied to that they think 'drugs are bad' so saying that Fox did drugs in his youth is a condemnation when you have that mindset.

Sure, but you can’t reasonably restrict your speech such that no one can take your ideas, apply their own strict lens, find some reason for there to be offense using that lens, and then object to your speech on that basis. You’d have a hard time discussing the weather under those rules of conversation.

If someone thinks drugs are so bad that an even-handed curiosity whether a particular drug could have been at play is unseemly, the problem is with them, not with the reasonably sanely grounded curiosity. Replace cocaine with alcohol or aspirin and @influx’s comment is the same.

You're right. And you got me thinking about just why MJF might not have just straight up admitted to cocaine or amphetamine use during those times (especially now as he presents a more tempered tone as he faces his own mortality). Back to the Future was his first movie and he has said that the grueling process was "worth it"(it basically launched the career that he moved to hollywood seeking). If he ever publicly stated that drugs helped him succeed, it would come off as an endorsement. This was the first article where I've seen him say he "smoked a lot of pot" and had a drinking problem and it may just be that those admissions are more generally accepted now (and without the same 'drugs are bad' stigma.)

I was actually always under the impression that MJF was a cocaine user back in the day and that cocaine use had been associated with Parkinson's onset - and I have never in any way thought of this as judgmental. I'm not a big fan of coke, but to each their own.

I don't see how acknowledging that possibility is doing a disservice to an actor I've always had a soft spot for.

Perhaps consider your own projections?

- ed

nngh - swapped 'ignoring' for 'acknowledging' so as to make the point I wanted, NOT the exact opposite.

I must insist, because it's not just about my perception (I'm neutral about drugs, for I respect bodily autonomy) but the average person.

Even with the recent changes, a history of drug use has a negative connotation. Weed is minor bad, cocaine is bigger bad (except in finance, but that's another story).

By suggesting that MJF disease was fueled by his drug habit:

- you will be causing more people to see him with a negative light

- you might impede what seems to be his good will effort to put his money and fame against the disease

There is no perfect solution, but I think we should at least be aware of these second order effects -- see also The Dark Knight for when Batman decides that preserving the previous good reputation of Double Face was more important, because it gave hope to people.

My personal take: Disease do not come from doing "good" or "bad" deeds - they just are. As someone else said, even if it was 100% due to drugs, that does not precludes compassion.

Also, even if I'm neutral on drugs, lots of people aren't. Therefore, making this connection, while technically true, may bring very little upsides but lots of downsides, so it's better not to, if only because we should leave MJF himself decide what to disclose or not, while by default extending the benefit of doubt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bright_Lights,_Big_City_(film)

This kind of stuff is useful when looking at big populations, but much less so when just talking about a single individual.

A close family member had parkinson's. A total of 5 coworkers developed parkinson's disease. There was speculation that some sort of common environmental factor was involved, but there was no medical (or legal) way of determining if or what it was.

None of these people had grueling schedules, drug or alcohol problems or outlier lifestyles and all had office jobs. There was some speculation about an office for two of them that had once been a chem lab.

> A close family member had parkinson's. A total of 5 coworkers developed parkinson's disease. There was speculation that some sort of common environmental factor was involved, but there was no medical (or legal) way of determining if or what it was.

For anyone who hasn't seen Dark Waters yet, I would recommend watching it, or at least reading up on the Chemical Industry's shady business practices. Let's just say we no longer use non-stick pans in our household. (This is not to say it has a connection specifically to Parkinson's).

Nonstick pans are a crazy invention. Heat it up too much and toxic vapors are emitted, vapors strong enough that its not uncommon for parakeets and other small birds to die in such a presence.

Yup. 100% safe, as long as one never ever heats up teflon beyond a certain point. FDA validated testing, therefore, shows it as safe!

Yet who one Earth has never, even for a few seconds, had something happen while cooking. A distraction. A mistake with the heat. An accident requiring attention, a small child taking attention away.

One mistake, one moment of error, and now the teflon is toxic.

Meanwhile, there are endless warning labels all over packages for absolutely absurd things. Such a bizarre world.

What gets me, is that there are all sorts of replacement non-stick coatings. All brand new, all "Oh yes that's perfectly safe!", people happily buying those.

Iron or stainless steel for me, thank you.

It's incredibly hard to figure out all the new nonstick coatings.

Companies don't want to list negative stuff on the label because people look, then don't buy.

I found out the I had a lot of trouble with Sodium Lauryl Sulfate - my sheets would irritate me after I washed them, and it was a relief to find a detergent without it. (also goes for shampoo, toothpaste and lots more)

But the lengths companies go to when hiding it on the ingredients list. They name it something else.

See "other names" on this page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_dodecyl_sulfate

I think hiding the type of non-stick coating on a frying pan or a toaster has a lot in common with obscuring SLS.

Re: SLS. Hadn't heard of it, but clothing detergents can irritate my skin. Obviously, it may be SLS.

I'm rural, and so have my own well. One side effect is that depending on rainfall, and other factors, the hardness of my water changes.

Quite literally, I sometimes need to use 3x the detergent. Further, it is not entirely clear when to use 3x the detergent. I don't have time to do one of these every wash (other kits aren't suitable for my water):

https://ca.hach.com/total-hardness-test-kit-model-5-b/produc...

Anyhey, so I always just add vinegar after the wash, and do a second rinse. As this fixed most of my issues, I used to get rashes, and now I do not, it may be that vinegar is additionally effective at removing SLS.

Just a FYI, although I have zero idea if valid. Just that "irritation goes away" for me.

Edit for clarity:

I tend to add a full cup of vinegar, and sometimes more. The vinegar tends to rinse out very well.

That's really interesting.

I read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_water

"With hard water, soap solutions form a white precipitate (soap scum) instead of producing lather, because the 2+ ions destroy the surfactant properties of the soap by forming a solid precipitate (the soap scum)."

I wonder if the vinegar helps clear this out.

SLS is a surfactant. I don't know how it all works together.

There are loads of additionals added to soap, likely SLS helps too, to combat hardness in water. Most water has some hardness, but mine varies between 20 and 60 grains of hardness, which is quite high.

As you cannot tell the perfect amount of soap to add, unless you know the precise hardness at that moment, water like mine which is variable means a simple thing.

I am simply forced to add 3x the soap of the 'low range' of my water hardness, thus ensuring the clothes are effected by the soap.

Yet with amounts like that, all the soap has a difficult time washing out. Vinegar really helps, as an acid, to nullify the soap and wash it out.

So my target is not SLS in specific, just 'soap is a base, so acid should help get rid of it', which seems to work.

Some organisms cannot handle acid as well, so it may help in other respects.

Was poisoned, major gas leak. It activated A genetic disorder. factor 5 Leiden. Basically lots of strokes.

Doctors flat out don’t care how it happened, and want nothing to do with paperwork.

So getting legal or even basic disability was impossible.

So yea environmental factors are a big deal.

There is no need to speculate about what more might have been happening than what was said.

For example consider his pot comment. We have known for many years that common herbicides, for example paraquat and maneb, can cause Parkinson's. Sometimes surprisingly quickly. In the 1980s we still used cyperquat which is even more closely related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPTP which can (when injected) create almost instant Parkinson's. And not only did we use those herbicides, law enforcement specifically used them to target marijuana.

So it is quite reasonable that smoking marijuana that had been sprayed with an herbicide could have caused him early onset Parkinson's.

If the bad batch was smoked on set at Leo & Me, you've got the whole cluster explained. Or maybe they were unlucky and filmed directly downwind of someone spraying too much herbicide.

There are a lot of possible ways that it could have happened.

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