Hacker News Reader

Comment by andrepd | Hacker News Reader

This is profoundly depressing. The fact that an EU defence conference is being held... on Zoom, is truly a microcosm of what has been the strategic policy of the EU for the past 20-30 years. We have sold off our independence, out advantages economic and otherwise, for pennies. For minuscule short-term gains, we have sold off our industry, our tech, to a hostile and totalitarian government. Well when I say "we" I mean private enterprise, but also the governments who were supposed to be raking in (though as one German economist said, government and private enterprise are pretty much one and the same).

It will come soon a time (in fact, it's pretty much here already) where China calls the shots over us. "Obey, or no microchips for you. In fact, no manufacturing of any kind." Thoroughly depressing.

View on HN

thats not zoom, its Pexip

https://www.pexip.com/

The Zoom security debate has been hashed to death on HN lately, but Webex for example patched some RCEs only a couple weeks ago. I’m not fully convinced Zoom is objectively less secure than all the other alternatives these days. They just get a lot more attention for it.

Besides, if the EU defence conference had an open URL or weak password that issue would apply regardless of Zoom, Webex, etc.

The point of GP is that Zoom is american software, regardless of any particular issue related to the app itself. Which IMO, is a very crucial point.

A EU security conference should use EU software, and as little foreign stuff as possible. Otherwise, it's just theater (and it currently really is just that!).

All of Zoom’s security team is based in the US to be fair. I don’t really agree in general that the X-conference should use X-software.

Well, if you are using foreign software for sensitive stuff, then you should at least be able to fully review the source and build the app yourself.

> All of Zoom’s security team is based in the US

That's the point. Thinking that the US are truthful and honest allies of the EU is plain laughable.

They’re also all using Apple products, for example.

Yes, much to the EU population's dismay.

I think it's way too paranoid and impractical to seriously have every single thing homegrown. No Zoom, no Microsoft, no Apple, no Google, no Intel or ARM chips. It's just not going to work. It's not even clear to me that would be more secure. Okay, so you've successfully defended against the threat of the US government pressuring those companies to add backdoors to spy on your conference. Now you have to make sure your homegrown software and hardware in secure. Also the EU is multiple countries with competing interests anyway. Come on. We have to be a little more practical in the real-world I think.

Kinda cool if defense conferences were done using some defense apps that works, so that in case of a Soviet or Romulan invasion or whatever, military generals and SecDefs could just open their defense laptop and resume on defense discussions, though granted the world don’t have runaway Soviet threats anymore.

It's about sovereign interest, and if you rely on foreign assistance to run state, you are a vassal at best. Last time I checked, Russia is still holding onto annexed land in Ukraine, and there is a proxy war in Yemen, the Korean peninsula is prepared for a full blown conflict at any moment, hostilities between India and Pakistan, and on, and on, and on, and on. There are absolutely ambitious geopolitical interests at play willing to use brutal force as a means to obtain their goals at costs most people cannot comprehend. It's probably advantageous to have your own tech and verticals for building it domestically. I mean it's not like securing uranium deposits.

> The point of GP is that Zoom is american software,

Wait. Isn't Zoom Chinese software?

But it should not matter how secure chatting software is. This sort of stuff should be on offline VPM, separated from normal internet. If officials are using their personal devices for this....

It is not that simple. The minute China does it - they stand alone. The whole premise of outsourcing manufacturing to China will die. No one will trust them to do it. In my opinion they won’t do it

With ~20% of the world’s population, more than the entire combined population of the G7, they might be able to stand alone.

They may not explicitly desire standing alone, but I wouldn’t bet against them deciding that’s the better option, nor would I bet against them using or threatening to use their manufacturing capability to put pressure on certain policy objectives. It’s not like other countries don’t use economic impact as a carrot/stick to achieve policy objectives.

Imo, it's because they have such a huge population that they can't stand alone. They simply don't have enough resources. And unlike the US, they're surrounded by current and potential enemies.

The setup of China being the world’s workshop is temporary. Chinese leadership is using foreign capital to bootstrap their internal market. They will be self-sufficient in less than a generation.

And, perhaps more importantly, they are using all of the monies to start getting their own foothold in other continents. IOW they are entering their own modern expansionist phase.

> It will come soon a time (in fact, it's pretty much here already) where China calls the shots over us.

The U.S. already does that. Why is that any better?

Would you rather have the US tell you what to do or China?

While there may be some negative news coverage of China's actions, most of them are within or at their borders.

I have yet to see recent news of them bombing other countries, kidnapping people from around the world and destabilising regions around the world.

In truth, I'd rather have neither of them bullying others but if I had to choose, I think the less violent bully is a better choice.

They do intimidate people abroad

Canada: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-china-ramps...

same in Australia https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-19/fake-chinese-police-c...

kidnapping abroad (Thailand): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gui_Minhai

killing abroad (Indonesia): https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-45976946

(Australia) https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-25/asio-says-its-taking-...

Neither. I would like there however to be a credible power to challenge U.S. policy, perhaps China even, so that it's hard for both sides to get aggressive policies implemented internationally as there's credible pushback.

Right now, there's practically no pushback on crippling U.S. sanctions against Iran or Venezuela for example.

If china bullies too much the US and Europe will ally together against them.

The difference between the US and China's government is that almost nobody likes China. The US, at least before recent political developments, tries to make sure that agreements benefit both sides.

The US is also a democracy that respects freedom of the press and human rights to a degree. China doesn't give a shit about any of that.

> If china bullies too much the US and Europe will ally together against them.

Right. My problem is that the U.S. already is bullying too much and nobody pushes back against them, if it takes China to do it, so be it. I wish the EU to grow a backbone, but it is unlikely to happen.

I mean you have the U.S. sanctioning MEDICINE to Iran in the middle of a global pandemic and threatening Europe with secondary sanctions if we help out.

You have the U.S. sanctioning ICC officials for wanting to investigate U.S. war crimes. You have the U.S. arguing in the open[1] that it is free to kill its own citizens without due process.

I'd like someone to push against that, may as well be China if the EU is not up to the task, as it has repeatedly shown.

1 - https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20201117/12384545723/gover...

These are all very recent developments. The last few years has been very different than decades before. Hopefully we can restore some normalcy after this turbulent period...

Reply on news.ycombinator.com