Comment by zepto | Hacker News Reader

Comment by zepto | Hacker News Reader

“Apple’s insistence that reaching up to touch a laptop screen is too burdensome is just getting silly, especially when that is not a problem on the iPad and across the universe of Windows laptops, and most especially when these laptops can run iPhone and iPad apps natively.“

In a way Nilay is right - ultimately it makes no sense not to allow touch interaction.

However Apple is also right in a different way. If apps are designed to work primarily with touch, reaching up all the time will negate the value of keyboard and touch pad and will be needlessly fatiguing.

Apps need to be designed to accommodate both kinds of usage.

Windows gets away with this because most apps are designed as laptop first.

By delaying the introduction of the touch screen, Apple is pressuring developers to make their Apps work in both contexts.

When they introduce a touch screen they’ll say something like “Back in 2020 most touch apps weren’t designed for the kinds of uses laptop and desktop users expect. Since then developers have done an amazing job of giving all our our users a great experience. Thanks in part to their hard work, today we’re proud to introduce the first computer that truly combines what we have learned about how to build great touch apps, with the decades of understanding that has gone into making MacOS into the worlds most advanced desktop operating system.”

Not only is most desktop software not well suited to touch interactions, touchscreens on laptops are also an ergonomic nightmare.

Try reaching your hand up to touch your monitor and hold it there for a minute. Now try pretending you’ll do this for an 8 hour workday.

It’s a useless feature in search of a use-case.

My own limited personal experience is that a touchscreen is basically useless in a conventional laptop whose hinge only opens to 135-180 degrees. Once you can open the screen 360 degrees, you have a fighting chance at being able to take handwritten notes and drawings on a somewhat ergonomic convertible tablet. But I've never had to do this much, and have always preferred pen and paper.

>It’s a useless feature in search of a use-case.

This was true until just now. The use case is right at the end of OP's quote. These laptops now run iOS apps that are designed with touch as their primary or only interface. It is weird to include the functionality to run these apps but not the functionality to interact with them properly.

I think this is more of a nudge to Slack and Discord (and certain others) to make their Mac apps based on their iPad apps instead of Electron. And for some games to add keyboard support.

And once they do, others will follow. Except Google or Facebook, which will remain website-only because their whole businesses is based on ad networks across the web.

I don't think iOS apps that have poor UX on the Mac will be allowed in the Mac App Store long term.

Older people love touchscreens on laptops and use the feature very heavily (I think my mother touches her Surface Book's screen in laptop mode more than the trackpad). I see it as a nice to have when I'm recommending laptops for others even if I hardly ever use it myself. It doesn't have to be a revolutionary new input style that apps transform to make use of, and I think that's where Apple gets stuck because that's so alien to their design philosophy.

I agree with everything you just said except this conclusion:

“It’s a useless feature in search of a use-case”

Sometimes it’s going to be easier to pinch to zoom, for example, than do the same thing with a keyboard or mouse.

Touch is no longer an expensive feature to add, so it makes sense to add it for certain use cases.

Also imagine a Mac being used in a kiosk situation where an iPad isn’t big enough.

I wouldn’t be surprised if we eventually get a Mac that is essentially a giant iPad in form factor which can operate in both modes. On a stand to act like a desktop, or on the table, to act as a giant iPad. It would make little sense to disable touch when in upright mode.

You can pinch to zoom with a trackpad.

I too assume touch based Macs are coming at some point. But I expect them to live alongside conventional laptops for as long as people continue to buy them. Whenever I’ve tried different kind of convertibles they’ve felt like compromises. The tablet and the laptop seem like the best version of each.

Not everyone can use a trackpad.

I’m curious: when would someone be able to use a touchscreen to pinch to zoom, but not be able to use a trackpad to make the same gesture? Is this an accessibility issue or just a question of what hardware is present?

An accessibility issue. Plenty of people with RSI for example can use a vertical mouse or other adapted pointing device, but not use a trackpad.

Orientation matters a lot.

Lots of options for interaction gives less repetitive movements.

> Not only is most desktop software not well suited to touch interactions, touchscreens on laptops are also an ergonomic nightmare.

I think the opposite form factor would make more sense: an iPad Pro that runs macOS. You could have a laptop style dock but allow it to be used in tablet mode too.

You're envisioning using a touchscreen device much like you'd use your smartphone which is flawed to say the least. Having used a touchscreen laptop for the last 6+ years, I assure you there's a place for touch in laptops. The arguments against touch on a laptop are much like arguing against any other peripheral used.

> Try reaching your hand up to touch your monitor and hold it there for a minute. Now try pretending you’ll do this for an 8 hour workday.

This is asinine and you know it. That's akin to arguing that we shouldn't use mice or touchpads by saying "just try typing with an onscreen keyboard all day using point and click."

All my touch needs in laptop are satisfied by the track pad. I have Apple Magic Trackpad instead of a mouse. I never felt need for a mouse or touching my screen.

People said similar things about mice, scroll wheels, and trackpads.

>This is asinine and you know it

Why do you think we use mice and keyboards instead of touchscreens for serious work? Gorilla arm syndrome has been known since the Apple 1.

We originally just used keyboards, the mouse was introduced as the technology evolved. The mouse didn't display the keyboard. The same thing is happening now and touchscreens will not display the keyboard or mouse, they will compliment them just as the mouse did the keyboard.

"Serious work" is determined by the value it provides, not the way it's produced.

Input methods are additive to the user experience. No one is proposing that you use touch exclusively on your laptop. It becomes of of multiple input methods, with keyboard, mouse/trackpad, voice, that are appropriate for different use cases and different times. It is about options and flexibility.

I frequently use an iPad on a keyboard stand. I frequently switch controls depending on what I’m doing. Sometimes just to induce variety to help avoid RSI.

I’ve used windows laptops with touchscreens a lot and never really used the touchscreen. There doesn’t seem to be a point.

The most annoying thing that can happen to a laptop short of breaking is smudges on the screen. I really don't want to ever have to be required to physically touch the screen in order to complete any operation.

I've found it has uses with pairing.

Otherwise yea I agree.

I used to have a Surface, and when I was using it with the keyboard the most common thing I'd do on the touchscreen was scrolling. You can extend your arm out and rest your wrist off to the side, which puts your thumb in a nice spot to reach an inch or two at the bottom of the screen.

I used pinch to zoom on the web as well. It's just nicer than weird key combos like ctrl-wheel, and your average user doesn't even know that exists. But I bet they know about pinch to zoom.

I have a Yoga 720 with a touchscreen and honestly the only time I use the touch is inadvertently when I'm wiping a piece of dust or the like off the screen. Every time it is a bit of a shock.

The form just doesn't conduce itself to touch. As someone earlier said, even if Apple does eventually add touch, they need to figure out the collision with iOS to allow functional use without requiring it.

I firmly believe that it's downright impossible to give a great experience with the same UI using touch/keyboard+mouse. You're just bound to have ugly tradeoffs in usability xor visuals.

It also seems to me like an ergonomic nightmare. I'm curious to hear if people who use their iPads like laptops (with a keyboard and trackpad) feel like they want to reach for the screen. I'd imagine it's a last resort.

I often use an iPad in a keyboard case and I have a BT mouse. I constantly switch control methods depending on the situation. Sometimes you want precision and use the keyboard or mouse. Other times you want more interaction and will use the touch screen. Scrolling is often easier using touch. If I had a touchpad, the mix might shift a little but not drastically. I also like to switch up controls as a hedge against RSI.

Touch is not an ergonomic nightmare and it is not the last resort. It’s just an option where appropriate.

I have a laptop with touchscreen, hardly ever use it. In most cases it's a mistake that i touch the screen and then it does something i didn't want it to do.

Touchscreens on laptops only make sense to me if you can wrap the screen around completely, and use it like a tablet, like many of the lenovo yoga models allow you to do.

I used a Windows laptop with touchscreen for a while. While the touchscreen was never the primary input method it was nice to have it for some operations where more interactivity was called for or just to give my hands a break from the mouse or keyboard. It’s nice just to have options.

Most users are not asking for touchscreens on their Mac laptops just like no one wants a touchscreen TV.

I'd settle for turning the trackpad into a second display and supporting Apple Pencil input. I'd keep it turned off most of the time, but it would be amazing to be able to flip it on and have it zoom into part of the main display in order to handwrite or draw something now and then.

You can essentially already do that by using an iPad in sidecar mode.

Which is honestly super cool! However, I don't have an iPad, and given my use cases, I don't need/want one that much. I feel like the Apple trackpad's unparalleled touch input would be perfect if it also served as a second display... I guess the right answer is in fact an iPad, with that extra real estate for drawing.

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