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Comment by elamje | Hacker News Reader

A fun anecdote about AirBnB in China: 2 years ago I travelled to Beijing and Shanghai and intended to stay in an AirBnB.

AirBnB had tons and tons of listings in both places, all of which had specific instructions to tell the neighbors you were “a friend” and not staying there with AirBnB.

At the time, and possibly still so, AirBnB was not operating legally in those particular places, and I presume most of the country, but it’s such a good booking platform people used it anyways.

Long story short, I doubt China is not going to copy AirBnB, unless they can find a nice revenue share model with AirBnB the platform.

P.s. There is ripe opportunity to make apps that interface China to westerners traveling there. There was literally no way to hook into the QR payment system, get a Didi, navigate, or get good translations just 2 years ago. Good luck to those of you building products to help non Chinese people in China. You’ll do well.

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This seems incredibly dangerous as visitors on a tourist visa are required to register themselves with the local police within 24 hours of arriving at their destination.

Trying to stay under the radar seems like it courts risk of deportation, as I've known _lots_ of folks who got a visit from police at their place of stay who were not aware of this. Virtually all of them settled things fine but it was more headache than had they just done what they're supposed to.

I believe in a hotel stay, your hotel registers you online so that you don't have to deal with this.

> ”your hotel registers you online so that you don't have to deal with this”

If a hotel can do it, surely there’s no reason why Airbnb can’t figure it out?

How are they going to do that at the place where you're not legally allowed to be staying?

This was reckless and stupid of them and demonstrates what AirBnB often does -- that they put their business above the safety of their guests and hosts.

What do you mean? Airbnb is perfectly legal in China, subject to the guest registration requirements mentioned here.

It was not when they first started operating there which is the context with which the conversation was being had.

I rented a number of Airbnb apartments in different countries, many of which required guests to be registered with the police. Typically the owner would meet me when checking-in, and they'd take a copy of my passport or drivers license, and occasionally I'd have to fill out a form with a few basic pieces of information (name, date of birth, etc) for them to submit. It was usually 2 minutes of work.

The downside was it was all incredibly insecure. They'd be snapping passport photos on their personal phone, and one apartment had a book in the living room with passport numbers and personal information of every previous guest.

So, technically it works now in different countries, but Airbnb really needs to assist these owners and get some proper procedures in place.

I had to do this at an AirBnB in Cuba. It seemed like a lot of work for the owners. I was also a little nervous about taking photos of passports and things before I understood it's a government process. The platform should help out here.

It wouldn't be a problem if they were operating legally (e.g. if the place you were staying in had the appropriate license to operate a hotel).

If a hotel can do it, surely there’s no reason why Airbnb can’t figure it out?

A good innovation for AirBnB would be to automatically notify the relevant tax authorities about their hosts income from illegal subletting, ahem, I mean "renting out a spare room"

I do not see how AirBnB can figure it out at all, under their current business model. Their business model depends on not vetting the place of stay and doing bare minimum for deal brokerage. Dealing with this would require them to incorporate all the fine details of hoteling into the business model.

This is why I always stay in a hotel and not with friends or Airbnbs whenever I visit China. I'm not bothered to deal with registration and the hotel takes care of it.

What most tourists don't know is that the hotel has to be registered to accept foreigners. I don't know if it's an issue any longer, but some foreigners found out the hard way after booking accommodations through Ctrip.

Nevermind that around 90% of hotels in China do not allow foreigners. It was not a fond memory dragging my heavy baggage one place to the next for half a day being rejected all over Beijing (experienced it in Shanghai and Guangzhou too)

Of course the wealthy here would never know, most places priced in the top 20% expensive accept foreigners. I was a poor student and also worked as a teacher($400/mo) looking for midrange accomodations, not to spend a month's pay on a weekend trip

> dragging my heavy baggage one place to the next for half a day being rejected all over Beijing

Yep, one would think that for a government that cares so much about their image they would avoid visitors having to go through this nonsense.

For budget travellers to Beijing -- 如家 accepts foreigners last I checked. 7天 used to but they don't anymore as of a couple years ago.

If China really cared about their image they wouldn’t be doing all the things they try to hide.

There were two system in the past: hotels for foreigners, designed to take passports and hotels for citizens, taking only IDs. There has been recent national system upgrades, now Chinese can use passport as identification (although still not universally). Since last year, you can use passport to check in high speed rail stations (maybe still not all of them) without queueing up in exchange for a real ticket. The direction is clear. It is a big IT system with different departments, I can imagine the problem will be gone in the future.

Never had this issue, but then again granted I stay with the nicer hotels typically part of a western chain.

I can say that while staying with locals I never registered or being asked to. And it went like this for a couple of months. Not only with Chinese, but also expats. I mainly got my accomodation though CouchSurfing (I wasn't aware of BeWelcome nor TrustRoots back then) The hosts seemed to have guests very often and we were never asked to pretend to be friends from home or anything. This happened not only in the main cities, also in some prefecture-level cities. It happened on a tourist visa, back in 2015

Yes, many people do in fact break the law and get away with it. This should not be surprising.

If it is common then why did you say this was dangerous?

Chinese police are not known for a lax attitude to rule breaking when it comes to foreigners

Anecdotal experiences incoming:

I am moderately involved with various sinology students from Europe. And have traveled to China personally.

Personally I stayed at various AirBnBs within China and registered at the police in Bejing and Shanghai.

The host provided a signed letter confirming where we are staying. With that letter I headed to a local police station where I gave the letter and had to fill out a form with basic personal details and address of where I was staying.

In return I got a stamped letter confirming my stay.

Anecdotes from others: People who have registered late for various reasons (finding apartment, inconvenient arrival combined with work, etc)

I have as of yet not heard anything experience other than the police saying please register on time next time and still got their stamped confirmation of stay.

One standout story however is someone who looked up a recent political dissident via Baidu and got a visit from the police, nothing really exceptional happened except he got visited at his apartment got told off, had to sign a letter confirming the visit and infraction.

The person in question has been back to china multiple times since.

> someone who looked up a recent political dissident via Baidu and got a visit from the police

......How is anyone okay with this..

> had to sign a letter confirming the visit and infraction.

sorry, what infraction?

Looking up a political dissident. That's apparently illegal in China.

(It is a communist nation where disagreeing with the government is tantamount to treason and is treated as such.)

Chinese police are known to shy away from any work that falls away from what they are normally doing. Registering a foreigner in a small town is a once in a lifetime experience for them, so many things can go wrong, so they wont do it.

The problem will only arise when you happen to be a criminal and your friend will be in trouble. If nothing happens, no one is going to check the record.

So my wife is Chinese and from Shantou, a pretty big city in the South. First time I went, of course we stay at her parents house and I tell them that it's required we get registered at the police station.

Her uncle, my wife, and I went to four police stations. All refused to register my stay and told me to go the next place. The final one told me that they require to see our marriage certificate (which we didn't have as I never read once that it was needed), so we gave up.

I've been many times now, and I've never had a problem although it's a city that foreigners probably do not travel to as much as say Shanghai or Beijing.

I was going to say that was strange as I've stayed in Nanjing and my wifes small town (of several million people) outside of Nanjing and didn't get denied, but then realized that you didn't have the marriage certificate with you. I do believe that's required everywhere. For native Chinese it's becoming easier to visit other places because the registration system is becoming more digital. That unfortunately has the side effect of making it increasingly more difficult for foreigners since the manual method is becoming less common and therefore more confusing for local police.

It is interesting in the context of AirBnB - with the registration system they can't use the same "it's better to ask forgiveness than permission" approach they used in US. I have seen very successful foreign run businesses, for example a friend who imported steel in China, do really well for many years because the government wasn't interested in their industry, and then all of sudden find himself against several competitors and be completely out of business in the space of 6-12 months. I'm bullish on AirBnB but depending on success in China is a risky strategy.

This is kind of off topic of AirBnB but can you share a little bit more about the registration system in China? By the way you describe it, it sounds like not only foreigners must register with the police when they visit other cities.

No, only foreign nationals must register when visiting places. Chinese citizens only must register at the police station when moving - though as if often the case, many people ignore such rules. I just meant that the state is tracking where people visit thanks to digital means - facial recognition and cell records. But foreigners can't really skirt those rules, both because they aren't as easily tracked and because they stand out.

As Chinese you don't need to register when you move. There is Hukou system which determine which city/province you belong to (mostly used for welfare system), the system basically require you to have a permit to stay and work in a different province. It was quite strict 30 years ago because of the imbalance between provinces, many migrate workers. Residence address is not important as in western countries (where your bank account links to your residence address). That said, hotels (and netcafes) do need to register customers' ID.

Hukou is what I was referring to. It's not just welfare, but distribution of state money (like USAs census) and in some places required to purchase property in that area. Most ignore the requirement (like they do many rules), so I understand why you say they "don't need to register", but technically it is required. This is where it gets fuzzy when you say something in China is "required" - technically it might be so but in practice it's not enforced, unless the government has a particular reason to enforce it, and even then it's usually temporary. It ends up being a weird situation where technically there's more restrictions in China but in practice there's a lot less red tape to deal with than living in the US. What that means in practice is if Beijing doesn't like you, they will find a laundry list of requirements you violated. Bringing it back to AirBnB IPO that concerns me.

They have a copy of the registrations for previous stays in a centralised computer system used at the border. They don’t necessarily flag up a lack of registration but they do keep the information and nothing to stop them raising it up as an issue in future.

You also don’t need to be married to stay in a private home.

Fine up to 2,000 RMB, more info:

https://en.tripadvisor.com.hk/ShowTopic-g294211-i642-k123478...

I researched a bit how Airbnb scaled in China two years ago, not sure how the things are going now.

Obviously there are tons of competitors in that area in China. They have far more employees and use typical Chinese aggressive marketing. The most notable one, Tijia cooperates with the main travel providers - CTrip, Expedia, Qunar. For me as a foreigner Airbnb works well, although in some rural areas it's better to go with Tijia.

Airbnb entered the Chinese market in 2015 – the same year in which Tujia became a unicorn. The global giant has been slow to expand in China, with 80,000 listings compared to Tujia’s 400,000. Indeed in 2017, Airbnb Inc's founders were moments away from merging their China business with Tujia. Chesky decided to block the deal out of concern that it would harm the Airbnb brand.

Afaik, Airbnb focuses on the quality of its listings. The company has visited thousands of houses and removed those that do not meet quality standards. The company launched Airbnb Plus, a premium service. The company works with opinion leaders and adapts its products to the market. Thus, apartments can be ordered through mini-programs in WeChat, and checkout using WeChat Pay and Alipay.

Link to article in Bangkok Post: https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/special-reports/1475857... (2017)

I stayed in AirBnB in Sichuan in 2017, all completely official.

I just had to go to local PSB (police) office to register for staying as a foreigner.

The biggest problem was of course the language as the police haven't spoken a word of English. They also didn't know Poland (issuer of my passport) is a real country.

I had that exact experience in the famously non-corrupt Netherlands (2017). It’s not a China thing.

Does the Netherlands have a rule that you register with the local public security bureau for wherever you are staying? I really don't see AirBnB working in China because of that.

Small, family run hostels in China manage to figure it out. AirBnBs in middle income countries operate much more like hotels than the empty apartments they're known for in the US and Europe.

They do, the owner or someone with “works here” goes down to the station to register them; if they are a hotel they’ll be able to fax/scan it to the PSB. It isn’t self service.

> Does the Netherlands have a rule that you register with the local public security bureau for wherever you are staying?

Yes, I believe they do (Vreemdelingendienst).

Not for a holiday though, only when you're planning on living here - which does makes sense.

I couldn't find an official source in English, so I'm just going off what I found here: https://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/forums/europe-western...

For tourists, it's something that's rarely enforced. And if you stay at a hotel they'll handle it for you (or presumably, maintain records in case the police have questions).

I'm Dutch. Before 2014, there was a rule (in theory) that foreigners staying at a non-hotel for more than 3 days had to register. In practice, it was not used. In 2014, this rule was completely eliminated. (There's a registration requirement if you stay more than 90 days as a foreigner, but since visas and visa free access to NL is for maximum 90 days anyway, this rule applies to basically nobody.)

Here's an official source, in Dutch - Google Translate will get the general point across: https://www.politie.nl/themas/kort-verblijf-vreemdelingen-20...

Oh gotcha, thanks. My info is outdated.

It doesn't, generally, exist. Here's something I found in Dutch: https://www.politie.nl/themas/kort-verblijf-vreemdelingen-20...

Machine translated, then lightly edited by me:

> Short stay in the Netherlands

> In anticipation of the amendment of the Vreemdelingenbesluit (Foreigners' Order), you no longer need to report to the vreemdelingenpolitie (foreigners' police) as a foreign national coming to the Netherlands for a maximum period of 90 days. There is one exception to this new rule. The Dutch representation abroad or the Koninklijke Marechaussee (Royal Military Police) may, in special cases, require you to report to the vreemdelingenpolitie in person within three days.

Thanks. It appears my info is outdated.

No, only if you're planning on living in the Netherlands for 3 months or more.

As an American it is so weird that a country would require you to register with the police at all, no matter your length of stay.

I see registering your place of living is quite importand when dealing with local taxes. Ie when staying in one place for longer than some period of time, alos same information is used for social purposes, for example to assign your kids a place in kindergarten or school. It just so happens that this responsibility is assigned to police. By the way passport issuing is also i think is under police in LT. And yeah tourists who stay for long periods are handled with same subroutine (if i can say so). Stay at one place for prolonget period of time, please register.

As an European, it seems weird that in the US you don't need to register your address at all, leading to this last-cenutry 10-year Census process.

As an American who now lives in Germany, it does make me think how the U.S works at all without this "registration". There are times where you fill out government forms with your address, but there's no way to know for sure where someone is living at any given moment. As far as the "government" is concerned (which government? state, local, federal? AFAIK it's all pretty decentralised) I'm still living at the place I registered to vote from years ago.

I suppose it's cultural differences. There's a staunchly individualistic attitude in the US and the idea of a central government tracking its citizens is very unpopular. I get it, too. If you take a look at the "Anmeldung" process in Germany, where the government has a list of everyone and their race/religion/nationality, along with exactly where they live/which building/which floor/which side of the building, you can see how such a system could be dangerous if Germany were to ever shift from the liberal democracy it is today.

Heck, I remember it getting drilled into me in middle school that the Nazis were able to kill so many Jewish people because they had complete records of where everyone lived and their religious affiliation. When the time came, they knew what doors to knock on. It boggles my mind that this system still exists in modern Germany, of all places.

The American model is highly distributed and need-to-know. Many government forms ask for your current address, but it is not automatically shared with the police and there is no requirement to update it in a timely manner.

Many Americans are highly skeptical of the police, and for good reason. Expecting people to go to the police to register when moving would be a complete non-starter in most neighborhoods that I have lived.

America is even more extreme - there the state asks you for your political affiliation in many cases. That’s absolutely crazy to me.

Hmm I've never been asked this on any official form other than when I register to vote (so I can join a party), and that's optional.

Right... but why does the state want to know which party you're a member of? This doesn't get supervised by the state in other countries. It's usually a personal, private matter between you and the party.

Ah, right, sure that's a good point but I wouldn't say it's more "extreme" than other countries, seeing as it's a totally optional thing. I can vote in elections without being affiliated with a party. In Germany, for example you don't have the choice but to have your race/gender/religion/address on file with the central government.

Disclaimer: I'm not complaining about how it is in Germany/other countries in Europe. The trust in government is quite high here, and for a good reason :)

It's for two reasons:

First we have a system of primary elections, and in many jurisdictions your party registration status determines which primary you can vote in. You have to be registered Democrat to vote Democrat, registered Republican to vote Republican, etc. The local election board is the one who oversees to vote, so they need to know your party registration in order to make sure you get the right ballot and the right ballot information (which is sent by mail beforehand). In many jurisdictions you can also "decline to state" and then in a primary election you have to tell them each time which ballot you want.

Second, it's used in state redistricting. Having this information be public allows auditors to check if redistricting is resulting in gerrymandering.

But I feel like I can keep asking ‘why’. Why does the state have its nose in political party business? Why are they running party primaries? Seems like something that should be firewalled off from the state?

In other countries parties run their own candidate selections as private business and the state can’t meddle in it, so the state doesn’t have to ask what what your affiliation is.

This is somehow connected to the fact that US political parties are mostly not mass membership organisations.

Everywhere else in the world, if you strongly support a party, you join it, and pay a membership fee, and the party adds you to a register. Then, you can take part in party activities, like internal elections.

In the US, you register as a supporter of a particular party with the state. Then, everyone registered can take part in (some) party activities, like primaries.

It's a weird system, and i don't know how it started, but because Americans don't realise it's weird, there isn't much written about it!

Race and religion are definitely not required (=optional for you to give) when you register for permanent residency in Germany. Source: I am a german who completed the form multiple times after moving.

AFAIK there's a direct connection between the church you are apart of and the government via Kirchensteuer.

As it relates to ethnicity, you're right. I can no longer edit my original comment though.

I think you can say “no religion” though and then not pay your tithing taxes, no? There’s no requirement that if you are Jewish you register as such (but then, your synagogue misses out on money).

Yes exactly, you can easily opt out from the church tax (of course, ideal it should have been opt in).

Hmm I've read stories of people getting in trouble for being members of a church and not paying their church tax.

Yes I guess it's the cultural differences. But in reality, if the US government wants to find out where you live, they're going to find out :-)

Also, as another child comment said, filling out religion and gender is optional, and no form ever asks for race (at least in Germany and Switzerland I know that for sure).

On the other hand, having better data about citizens makes a lot of things more efficient and fair in government and politics. As I said, I think the US Census is a disaster and always leads to unfair outcomes for minorities and lower class people.

But I agree, it would be better if they woulnd't ask for religion at all.

They’re asking for your religion because it makes a difference in your taxes and days free of work

Days of free work you need to take up with your employer. They're asking for the church tax.

> leading to this last-cenutry 10-year Census process

What are you referring to? We have a every-ten-year census mandate built into our constitution. It’s been an ongoing thing since the 18th century.

The census results are mostly kept private and anonymized, with only aggregate data being shared.

In other countries the role of the census is significantly lessened in modern times because basic population questions can be answered with "instantaneous" (in terms of when it was measured, if not when you get the results) data. The idea of waiting increments of 10 years to get basic counts of where people are living / moving to / from seems ridiculous. Deeper demographic information is usually handled via sampling, and does not require the nationwide (and especially this time, logistically taxing) mobilization of census-takers.

I do agree it would be difficult for the US to shift to such a system given the requirement is constitutional rather than merely a procedure of the civil service.

The US census is also intended to count people without an address.

Also, in the US it is state governments that are the authority for most things pertaining to where people live: property and rental law, identification cards, property taxes, voters registration, etc. Most states do require people to change their voters registration and drivers license when they move between states.

It’s not that strange that you don’t register your address with the federal government, when in fact, the only interaction that many Americans have with the federal government at all is their yearly tax filing.

In reality, there are a lot of problems with the Census that in the end unproportionally effect minorities and lower income folks negatively.

It's the same in Germany and Switzerland (and I think in a lot of other European countries): You register with your local government when you move, not the federal government.

??? My memory is fuzzy now, but I’m 99% sure the same rule applies in the USA

Nope.

The US does do this. I’m always asked where I’m staying when I cross into the US. I have to write it on my landing card and they ask me about it at the border. And this is someone who doesn’t need a visa, even.

that’s something different. Every country asks where you will be staying on their immigration entry forms. This thread is about local police, no immigration and customs agencies.

In Germany, it is required that when you move to a new apartment you walk into the nearest police station or town hall within a few days and fill out a form telling them your new address, who you live with, what their religious affiliations are, etc. You will get in trouble with the police if you do not do this.

In China they take it even further, and even tourist have to do the same. If you stay in an Airbnb in China and do not register with the local police, it is possible you can get in real trouble. This is not “write your hotel’s address on the immigration form”, it is “tell the local cops where to find you.” There is a huge difference in my mind at least.

> This is not “write your hotel’s address on the immigration form”, it is “tell the local cops where to find you.” There is a huge difference in my mind at least.

I'm sure it all goes into the same database.

Not on the USA. Maybe the feds have access to all these databases, but I guarantee the local police don’t. Things are very distributed here.

As a Canadian, I concur. I've lived in other countries with a pretty strict registration requirement and it always felt odd. I was always thinking "why do the police need to know where I live? I haven't done anything wrong".

It's really useful information for things like mailing your tax returns, verifying which municipality should receive taxes and also affects you social security. Sending voting information. For police they need to know where to send court documents and so on.

In Finland it's not really handled by police, usually done with Posti. Other great thing is that it also updates your details to most places...

It's not really registering with the police, though they probably get access to the information. When you do it you go to the council building and register there (at least when I last did it several years ago), so it's more like registering with the city. This means that things like local taxes and such go to you automatically. I do know a lot of people who aren't registered where they live, because they're illegally subletting or something so they're registered at their parents' place or whatever. It's pretty accepted that this is common.

Ya, the latter doesn’t really work in Switzerland, where they bring in swat if you aren’t registered properly, much to my shock.

In the Netherlands, and elsewhere in Europe, it’s not because of any requirement that tourists must register with authorities, but rather that some towns and cities have rules that restrict (or even ban) short-term AirBnB style rentals.

Here in London there is a 90-day rule (a property can’t exceed 90 days total short-term rentals per year), and it’s 60 days in Amsterdam. This is enforced on the AirBnB platform, but landlords will try to get around it by listing on multiple platforms or by having multiple listings for a property.

Dutch here. I don't for wherever. However, hotels are required to register their occupants to the city (council).

This reasoning given is 'security', that is, the city should know in case of an emergency ( say, a nuclear attack ) who to rescue. Ahum.

Of course, there is the nightly tourist taxes, that might have something to do with it too.

In UK as a foreigner you have to register within 7 days every time you move.

To be fair, so many things are "illegal" in China and it mostly serves to give authorities something to get you with if they actually want to get you. See also, VPN use.

Curious, what makes these things so hard for westerners? The Didi app (for example) is translated into English, isn’t it? Is it just a matter of incompatible payment systems?

I've used Didi extensively as an American in China, among other apps, both in local dialects and in English. I don't speak any dialects but rely on coworkers and in region partners to be all "just push this button and enter what mall/hotel/restaurant you're going to." Works with my personal/corporate cards.

Yes, payment systems.

Until recently WeChat Pay and AliPay could only be used with Chinese bank accounts in China, and to get a Chinese bank account you need to get a Chinese mobile number first.

If you are a frequent traveller and read Chinese, it isn't especially hard to get a mobile number and bank account other than preparing to waste half a day standing in lines. After that, life is heaven for you because you now have access to all the convenience of the myriad e-commerce websites and apps.

Any other visitors would have tough time getting train tickets, booking accommodations, renting bicycles, hell, even buying from vending machines or automated convenience stores, because people really don't use cash anymore, but the system is really only designed for domestic users without much thought for short-term visitors and tourists.

Had the same experience staying at a AirBnB in Vancouver. In that case it was a unit where (unbeknownst to me) the condo board had banned AirBnB, so we were instructed after booking to say we were 'visiting friends'.

In China you are legally required to go register your location with the police though. It's a bit different than lying to the building doorman or whatever.

I don’t see why that’s a hard problem. If hotels can register their guests automatically with the police as required, then why not AirBnB?

I just finished staying in an airbnb for a month in China and didn't have to go to the cop shop. I've now just rented an apartment and did the registration no issues, they didn't highlight any gaps on my travel record so I assume it was all above board.

According to the law, you have to register with the local authorities. Technically a law was broken, unlikely it will be used against you unless they make it a prerogative.

Yes, I believe I was registered. Airbnb takes a copy of my (and any fellow friends staying with me) passport and does a few extra checks compared to stays I've had in Australia. Having said that I was staying in a pseudo-serviced apartment so it may have just been a normal hotel that was advertising on Airbnb.

Yeah AirBnB seems to be operating above board in China now but that definitely wasn't the case a few years ago.

> it’s such a good booking platform

Is it? I always hated it. I'd be very curious to learn what makes it feel like a good booking platform. It doesn't even show you where the room is located! (only approximate location). Seems way worse than e.g. booking.com, the only reason really to use them might be lower prices... if they still have an advantage here, which I'm genuinely not sure anymore (a while ago I decided I don't want to deal with their crap regardless of how much money I might save).

[edit] "Is it?" was not a rhetorical question. I'm not upset or anything if you downvote, but can you also add what do you feel makes it a good platform? Or what did I say that was wrong?

Yes I made the switch back to "normal" hotels last year and everything was so much easier we arrived much earlier than expected and they had a better room available at that time so they gave us that one. Then took our bags while they cleaned the room went to the hotel's cafe for a coffee. Easy peasy.

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