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Comment by bradlys | Hacker News Reader

Top speed of 68mph (EDIT: might actually be 63mph?). Basically a fast golf cart as far as the US is concerned. Who buys cars like this in the US? Is there a sizable market for cars that can’t even drive on the freeway?

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My dad had a VW camper bus with a top speed of 65. It took a while to get there. I learned to drive with it.

It was quite a challenge to pass other cars on a 2 lane blacktop. The trick was to back off about a quarter mile, then floor it. By the time you reached the passee, you hit 65 and could swerve into the left lane then back again.

If you were unfortunate enough to get an oncoming car in the meantime, you stomped on the brake, slid back the quarter mile, and tried again.

The bus was also highly susceptible to crosswinds. Going in and out of cuts in a crosswind could blow you into the other lane. Had to anticipate that with the steering wheel.

Eventually my dad decided to sell it, and I took care of that for him. He asked me if I missed the bus, and I said no, I thought it was a minor miracle we never died in a crash in it. I understand the nostalgia for those cars, but they belong in a museum, not on the road.

Yeah. In Europe they have "city cars" with different standards for impact safety, so they can be smaller and lighter. In America, we mostly have full-on regulations for even the smallest cars, and then a category of vehicles limited to 25 MPH, which are hardly regulated at all.

I never heard of this, where in Europe?

I know in the Netherlands they have these little 'cars', that are essentially mopeds with a roof slapped onto them. They are speed-limited to 30mph and crash safety is on par with what you'd expect from a moped. You can drive these with a moped license (easy and early to get). You can only drive on roads limited to 50mph (most state roads and inner city roads).

I'm not sure why this is allowed as these things are noisy, unsafe, and hold up all other traffic. And they are not limited to disabled people either, anyone can drive these.

They used to look terrible and nobody wanted to drive them, but since they don't require a full driver's license and are not taxed annually, they have become more popular, and now look mostly like regular cars.

Search for 'brommobiel' or 'mini car' to get some examples.

What the law intended: https://alleverzekeringenopeenrij.nl/wp-content/uploads/brom...

What you can actually buy: https://media2.autokopen.nl/auto/brommobiel-aixam-crossline-...

That last 'car' has a whopping 8 hp.

I saw a lot of these in Paris. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15345640/an-aixam-to-grin... This is not the same as the "A-segment" cars that are usually called "city cars", so I probably got some terms confused.

Who buys cars like this in the US?

Retirees. People who don't ever drive on a highway. It's perfect for a second car, or a commuter car.

Is there a sizable market for cars that can’t even drive on the freeway?

Yes. In fact, there's even a huge market for luxury golf carts that people drive around retirement villages.

Most people don't realize that some retirement villages are larger and have more people than many cities. There was a pretty good article about it in the New York Times not too long ago. Some place in Florida that was profiled had some crazy number of residents like 50,000 or some similarly surprising number.

They'd also be good for fleet operations. How fast does an urban delivery vehicle need to go? Or a water company fleet? Or any number of maids, plumbers, HVAC guys, or other service industries?

In California, where this targeted, the maximum legal speed even on a freeway is 70mph.

That may be true, but the minimum speed before you are honked at from the car behind is about 60. That also matters.

Only if you're in the left lane, which you shouldn't be unless you're, you know, actually passing someone.

Basically, just pretend you're driving a really tiny semi and you're good to go.

Just for fun I've driven at 55 for a few weeks when I was trying to see how high I can get my mpg number. Every car was passing me, including semis. Even when driving purely in the right lane.

And yet at 70mph on California highways, most traffic will be zooming past you...

Only a few hours a day. The rest everyone is snarled in bumper to bumper traffic.

It hasn't been that way for the past 8 months.

I know nothing about this car but my intuition is to try to avoid consistently operating something at the extreme end of its capabilities.

For all we know there is a software limiter meaning its top speed is well within the safe range. It would be pretty poor to sell a car that would fail quickly under normal usage.

Going that slow on, say, 101 south of San Jose w/no traffic would get you honked at, flipped the bird, or worse.

If the road is wide open, and I'm in the right lane minding the speed limit, anyone that gets mad at my speed clearly deserves it.

Sometimes they end up passing the pain on to the law abiding driver: https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1326755485610020864 .

I feel like that example could have hit someone going 90 just as easily.

Top speed might not be a relevant concern here. How long does it take to get to 60mph with 27 horsepower, and/or is it even possible on a grade?

This power is on par with a riding mower at Home Depot.

Must be quite fast, as for any electric motor.

From the manufacturer website the car is listed as 45 kW, which is 60 horsepower, not 27.

Looking at the power-to-weight ratio, it's on par with the cheapest version of the Renault Zoe, so it should actually be fairly useable on highways. The Zoe does 0-60 in 13 seconds, which is definitely not fast, but it's not unusably slow either.

Probably the collision safety would be what stopped me from taking this thing on the highway.

Hmm. They list that as the motors “rated” power which seems to beg the question of why that qualification is merited. Is the battery and motor controller capable of delivering the 45kw the motor is rated for?

Motortrend says “less than 30hp” and CNN says 27.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2021-kandi-model-k27-k23-ev-...

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/26/success/kandi-10000-electric-...

I couldn’t find any other citations of output power.

data point: i've been in a zoe on a highway and it didn't have any issue getting to 140km/h (~86mph).

Electric horsepower curves are different from ICE horsepower. [1] ICE engines typically only put out peak horsepower at higher RPMs. A Honda Fit has a peak horsepower of 128. However at 2000 RPM the Fit only has 27HP, like this Kandi K27. [2]

At similar gross weights the Kandi with the pedal to the metal will accelerate like a Honda Fit driven casually or a truck with a trailer. Enough for 55 mph highways, city streets, or the slow lane of a 65 mph Freeway.

[1] https://auto.howstuffworks.com/how-does-horsepower-figure-in....

[2] https://www.automobile-catalog.com/curve/2018/2566010/honda_...

I own a Fit. The only time you're at or below 2000 RPM in a Fit is during cruise, deceleration, or creeping along at 15mph in school zones on flat ground. Just going up my quiet residential street with a slight grade at 20mph, I'll run it out to ~3500rpm.

Also, that torque curve isn't as relevant as it used to be -- a new Fit has a CVT, so the engine will continually operate at that peak power RPM when at WOT.

Operating on a grade will have a significant impact on that top speed. You can probably do a 65mph highway in the slow lane as long as the road doesn't have a grade and there is significant merge area.

The first gen Prius actually had this problem in San Fran. In reverse, they only use the electric motor, and it was not strong enough to go in reverse up some hills. It had a 40hp electric motor.

Even though the max speed is 70, I feel like 75 is the average traffic flow speed.

That would cover about 99% of what I use a car for. Worst case I just rent for the other 1%.

It would also cover 100% of legal speeds in my state. More than good enough for me and pretty much everyone assuming it works well at its top speed.

People pay $3K for electric bikes that clearly never enter a freeway.

So I would say yes.

A neighbor drives a "smart car" for errands around Washington, DC. I'm sure that isn't what she takes to New York City or Virginia Beach. I don't know how fast it is, but I would be uncomfortable in a car that size on the interstate.

Yeah, I live in a small town in the far northwest of the country. Nearest true freeway is either 100 miles or a ferry ride away. A surprising number people in town drive things like this.

It also has a 17 kWh battery, so the range is limited to something like 80 miles. This is a city car.

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