The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki
quantamagazine.org
quantamagazine.org
For some reason I often find papers and thesis I read in French way more interesting, well thought and presented than most things I read in English. I have a few hypotheses on why I get this impression:
1) the publish or perish culture originated from the Anglo-Saxon world. Until recently the research written in the national language was kinda shielded from it. In Japan for instance, where the higher education is modeled upon the US one, master students are expected to publish at least a conference paper. In France students generally don’t publish anything.
2) the PhD thesis are written differently. Where I’m studying it’s basically slapping three papers together with an introduction and a conclusion. This sometimes leads to awkward thesis and shallow work. Thesis (and HDR) written in Europe are more like a very well structured monograph.
3) the way to use the language is different as well. In French, any intellectual written work will use long and complex sentences (sometimes to a fault) that are cramming few ideas and their relationships. In English the style is to write short sentences, with at most one idea each. I sometimes feel I have to dumb down my writing and splitting sentences while in my native language a Proust-like sentence would be more appropriate.
The much simpler explanation is that there are way more English as a foreign language PhD students than there are French as a foreign language PhD students.
I went to a top CS research school and there were several students from China that had such a high language barrier that their papers had to be professionally rewritten by a service the university offered. Their research was Amazing but motivating the problem, describing the methodology, etc all in English just devastated the signal.
So yeah, you’re going to see good quality French writing because French is no longer the lingua Franca of science so a relatively tiny minority of non-French researchers are going to use it.
> These discoveries of connections between heterogeneous mathematical objects can be compared with the discovery of the connection between electricity and magnetism in physics or with the discovery of the similarity between the east coast of America and the west coast of Africa in geology.
> The emotional significance of such discoveries for teaching is difficult to overestimate. It is they who teach us to search and find such wonderful phenomena of harmony of the Universe.
> The de-geometrisation of mathematical education and the divorce from physics sever these ties. For example, not only students but also modern algebro-geometers on the whole do not know about the Jacobi fact mentioned here: an elliptic integral of first kind expresses the time of motion along an elliptic phase curve in the corresponding Hamiltonian system.
Arnold - On teaching mathematics - V.I. Arnold, On teaching mathematics – https://www.uni-muenster.de/Physik.TP/~munsteg/arnold.html
The Arnold – Serre debate - MathOverflow – https://mathoverflow.net/questions/153604/the-arnold-serre-d...
Vladimir Arnold - Wikipedia – https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Arnold
But the thing that really caught my eye here is your claim that there were visible effects of Bourbakism polluting mathematics.
Do you have any examples or specifics of that "visible effect". My question is a genuine one, not a challenge to what you are saying.
Eg. when teaching set theory, teachers were debating what should be a perfect representation of a set (is it an ellipse or circle... etc.?) Children were completely lost because of this.
If you don’t draw a perfect ellipse to represent a set then you had a bad mark and so on and so forth.
There is basically two solutions: reduce the quality of the material, or teach the teachers. I tend to prefer the second.
If you could prove me that there were more brilliant mathematicians educated in France during the 60's/70's compared to other periods, I'd be interested.
Even if this is the case (which I'm not sure), at least it's pretty clear it lowered the median (whether this is good or not is another debate ;)
Again, I'm not disputing what you are saying either, merely trying to understand what happened.
Is it still going on in French schools today? Or was it 60's/70's only?
> Is it still going on in French schools today? Or was it 60's/70's only?
Unless you are in a reaally elitist high school in Paris with a really old teacher, this should'nt happen nowadays.
The first thing I learned in the 1st year of schools were basic concepts of set theory. We were drawing circles, ellipses and Venn diagrams (even though we didn't call them like that) filled with images of apples, plums and cherries. Teachers explained to us what an intersection, union and set differences are and we were supposed to draw items into one set, but not in another set, etc.
I recall these exercises as funny and playful. They were similar to IQ tests in the sense that the exercise is logical, slightly entertaining, but highly abstract and loosely related to the world you know.
And I think this was the main issue. The 2nd topic we learned was simple arithmetics as in standard educational systems. However, at that time, I didn't see any relationship with the concepts of set theory.
Was the system any good? Hard to say. AFAIK, it was dropped after a few years. Eventually, I obtained a PhD in computer science, so at least, the system wasn't a complete disaster for me. :-)
Perhaps it made sense in ye olde days when many students would not go on to junior high.
- There was an American school about a lifetime ago that tried that strategy, and the principal claimed it worked fine.
- A general impression that before mass education it wasn't uncommon for people who got schooling to start years older than our start, with no impression that they learned arithmetic any worse. E.g. http://www.scientiasocialis.lt/pec/files/pdf/vol57/90-101.Pi... "In general the pupils began their arithmetical instruction at 10–11 and this education prosecuted for two years."
- Piaget's picture of stages of development (in my vague understanding) suggests that arithmetic beyond a very concrete level would be developmentally unnatural for younger kids, and more natural later. Apparently Montessori schools do better on this score?
- Unschoolers sometimes reach adulthood with less understanding of math than state-schoolers, but if the average is worse, I haven't heard of it. Anecdotally they're fine.
- Hate and ignorance of math is very widespread (I've read similar claims about average French people with their substantially different school system)
- This jibes with my general experience, having gone to school, etc.
- There's not much reason to expect a claim this far from mainstream to have been carefully studied. Maybe it has been and refuted -- I just don't very much respect the status quo and so I expect there are improvements that would 'easy' except for the obstacle that it's very hard to meaningfully change the system. And this strikes me as a plausible (though unambitious) one.
In my country I have been still learning from old schoobooks while classes below had new schoolbooks - thats why I remember that well.
Recently I have been helping 11 year old with classes (remote learning now). And my impression is that this top-down approach is still present but the schoolbook was full of practical life examples (money issues, understanding newspaper articles with pecentages and percent points etc.)
Later on the problems from the book could be solved only by university students (engineering etc.) and nowadays only by math students.
This is anecdotal of course and there are still lots of bright kids eager to learn math today.
A english translation of this book is available here
This one resonated with me. At one point I had a problem that had to do with Kahler manifolds, but I knew nothing about them and only had some worked examples using basic ideas from Hamiltonian mechanics that I learned from Arnol'd's book. In hopes of resolving my issues, I spoke to some symplectic geometers and used Hamilton-Jacobi language. They vaguely knew what I was talking about but couldn't carry out any calculations.
I once heard an anecdote about Arnol'd that he came to France and lambasted the French mathematicians on a similar basis -- for all their writing, they couldn't carry out "simple" calculations with a clear vision (as once can when one has a physics motivation). It might have been the anecdote was referring to the Serre-Arnold debate -- thanks for that link.
Of course, Arnol'd has... high standards, to put it mildly. In his book, "Problems for children from 5 to 15", he writes in the preface,
"My long experience has shown that, very frequently, dimwits falling at school behind solve them better than A-grade pupils, since – for their survival at the back of the classroom – they must permanently think more than required “for governing the whole Seville and Granada”, as Figaro used to say about himself, while A-graders cannot catch “what should be multiplied by what” in these problems. I have also noticed that five year old kids solve similar problems better than pupils spoiled by coaching, which in their turn cope with the questions better than university students used to swotting who anyway beat their professors (the worst in solving these simple problems are Nobel and Fields prize winners)."
One of the problems is to sum 1/n^2 from 1 to infty (this is for children not older than 15, remember). Not only would I be unable to do this without modern technology (like Fourier analysis), I also find it amazing that Arnold writes: "prove that the sum is pi^2/6, that is, approximately 3/2", as though the approximation were harder (or perhaps more important) than finding the exact value. To me, that small comment really underlines just how hands-on he was.
Edit: I remembered a joke.
Why did Bourbaki stop writing textbooks?
They found out Serge Lang was one person.
I don't really know how to phrase all that, but discarding the CS/axiomatic side of maths while praising the intuitive physics-inspired one is not the right approach imo.
I also think it’s going a little far to say “remove the beauty” - but it is true that if you don’t already have an appreciation for the specific subject, that beauty is awfully hard to find.
https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2020/04/13/bigness-part...
I have learned from both Bourbaki and Stewart and to each his own. I enjoyed Bourbaki’s Topology a lot, and their Real Analysis is quite good.
One criticism I have heard from professional mathematicians is that Bourbaki wasted a whole generation of French talent, pulling the best young mathematicians away from their own useful and interesting research to assign to them a project of marginal benefit if any, because being a member of Bourbaki was in itself prestigious. The work tries to be entirely self-contained instead of part of a conversation, which leads to insularity, arbitrary “not-invented-here” reformulation of established concepts, ignoring outside developments, and lack of historical links and attributions. It is essentially all reworking of previously known mathematics, rather than any new discovery.
I am not a mathematician, and I don’t really have insight into the opportunity cost of research potential for the people involved, but personally I think the Bourbakist style has been very harmful to mathematics: it is entirely dry and formal, eschewing motivation, examples, or pictures. As a reference for professionals it might be okay, but the same style has infected broad swaths of mathematics teaching, and it serves to chase away many newcomers, almost like a kind of hazing ritual.
But Bourbaki is to say the least a controversial group. I don’t think it should uncritically be taken as a model for other researchers.
And then there is physics which uses the sloppy (and often not correct) version of the second approach. I once asked Serge Lang about this (phrasing:'what about physicist getting the right result with wrong mathematics' (thinking about renormalization)). Lang replied:'this is God's way of calculation'.
But dont worry, these things can be overcome (do not fight them at your current stage if you are still a student). Just dont believe the 'hours needed' in the description of the modules (they are politically decided). Generously work around the clock for the first few years.....
edit: more seriously: although working hard is important: go to the office hours of your TA and/or prof and discuss the work you are doing. Usually no student does that and you will learn a lot.
Books that claim to appeal more to intuition or rely on visual arguments certainly help a lot with motivating ideas and establishing context, but at a certain point we need to be clear about what exactly we are talking about.
When learning a new topic in math, I personally prefer to start with a more formal, terse text. For me, the texts that focus too much on examples and motivation tend to be chattier -- I have to read an entire paragraph to understand what it is they are getting at, making more challenging the process of chunking the information into digestible bits that I can hold in mind as I shower or go for a walk (and generally less fruitful). Compare to say working through Rudin or Kolmogorov, where I can read a distilled sentence where each word is carefully chosen that I can easily recall and munch on. Part of it is that I have ADHD -- texts that are more formal and less chatty make it easier for me to focus.
That said, I do think Courant had a point with
> Mathematics presented as a closed, linearly ordered, system of truths without reference to origin and purpose has its charm and satisfies a philosophical need. But the attitude of introverted science is unsuitable for students who seek intellectual independence rather than indoctrination; disregard for applications and intuition leads to isolation and atrophy of mathematics. It seems extremely important that students and instructors should be protected from smug purism.
Basically, math doesn't exist in a vacuum, and I think part of the reason there are so many people with low emotional intelligence in math is this belief that it can. But that's another story
Soviet books (MIR Publishers) are notoriously terse and to the point. This is what we used in college, and it has made it difficult for me to read a different style, because the content tries my patience.
For example, I couldn't consume Andrew Ng's Coursera ML course, but I appreciated the CS229 recorded at Stanford because he dove directly into the maths part. I didn't want to see slides, I needed to see problem statement, pause the video, work through gradient descent, play the video, and check I got it right. Side note: doing this [pause, working on it, play] has its advantages, it helped avoid a confusion the instructor had in the course with notation, for example, which you had to be sorted out in the later part of the course.
As you said, it is a spectrum of content with different styles for different needs and people, but even for the same person, one might need a style at a certain point and the other at another point. I remember in my third year I used some MIT OCW resources because I felt my brain was shot and I needed to be spoon fed on a topic I was so far behind on.
Back then philosophers/mathematicians were kinda popular (think Sartre, Beauvoir and so on) so making such a group draw a lot of more public attention than it would now.
Sadly, I doubt that such a group could be created now.
Known to the general population as Saint Nicolas.
pg is many things, and he has bent the truth occasionally, but a liar he isn’t. Make of that whatever you will; it’s the closest you’ll get to an answer.
However, the early secret sauce of HN was to hunt for stories manually and to keep the front page interesting every day. (It’s today’s secret sauce too.) One person can do it, but they’d have to spend several hours per day, like a full time job.
This band has adopted the character of Nicolas Bourbaki in their concept album Trench. It's interesting since they commonly use the symbol Ø in their branding, which was introduced in mathematics by Nicolas Bourbaki to denote an empty set.
Right now everything is divided in specialized books with little to no connection from one to the other. Is there a feynman equivalent for maths?
Math isn’t just one linear subject. The foundations have tons of branches, and the abstract stuff has lots of branches.
* Mathematics: Its Content, Methods and Meaning by Aleksandrov, Kolmogorov, Lavrentev
* The Princeton Companion to Mathematics by Timothy Gowers et al.
* The Princeton Companion to Applied Mathematics by Higham et al.
For bourbaki, I had trouble figuring out what to read first, there are so many separate books. I'll try to figure it out
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00stcgv
all the episodes were great.
2020 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23901507
The clever part of the novel - and I can't even remember the name - was that the "discovery" they made was PCR. It made it seem a lot better then if the novelist had just created some magic invention for the characters. Made it much more grounded - as I remember it. That said, how good could it be if I can't remember the name of the book.
[0] https://www.wumingfoundation.com/giap/what-is-the-wu-ming-fo...
2. http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=FD4A085FE66F570A611...
3. http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=3D0FD4F846B974F5188...
4. http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=2E63639FC0764A52560...
5. http://gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=881279B349E43D6BED4...
And so on...