Comment by gambiting | Hacker News Reader

Comment by gambiting | Hacker News Reader

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I think the part you're missing is that unlike in the western cultures, there are places where relationships with your friends and family are far more important than anything else. Like think how to someone living in the US(usually) it's inconceivable to live in one place with 3 generations of people, grandparents, parents and kids, friends nearby. But to these cultures that's where the strength lies, you help them they help you.

But in these cultures it's also incredibly important to be seen as "doing well for yourself". You will see people from these cultures will frequently(for instance) drive a Mercedes, just because that means you've achieved something in life. Doesn't matter the Mercedes in question is 20 years old and on bald tires, it's a Mercedes, parents and grandparents can now say they are proud of you. It increases your social standing. Likewise, if you manage to buy an iPhone, that can be seen a an achievement(even if the iPhone is fake, what matters is people think you can afford an iPhone). Then in turn, if you are seen as successful(by the virtue of having those expensive things) you get better social opportunities, for employment, education, housing....it's almost cliche, but in some places having an iPhone, a good car and a gold chain(all fake of course) can really and measurably improve your standard of life.

Like, have you never seen a movie where a person emigrates to a wealthy country, and writes/calls the family back home saying "oh yeah I have my own bed, a car, a TV and a mobile phone! We eat meat every night" and like at home , that's incredibly impressive, even though to me or you that's just normal stuff.

I understand that concept somewhat, however, I think that most of the people in western cultures are moving past this. The materialistic part. Most would not care about clothes or the phone you own. What matters is personality and what you believe in. For example, you have an old phone because you're conscious of the environment. Or, you buy second-hand clothes because the shop donates money to some good cause.

The issue of using fake merch to show-off your status is that others will eventually catch up. Once every second person will have a fake expensive-looking phone, for example, it will lose its meaning. The rich and successful will find other ways to differentiate themselves. And I don't believe that owning a fake phone is going to make you successful. Being successful is a mindset.

> I understand that concept somewhat, however, I think that most of the people in western cultures are moving past this.

I agree with your comment, and I believe that these status symbols —fake or not— make people unhappy.

However, I’ll like to point out a few things.

When you say “western cultures”, you mean the US and Europe; Latin America is also part of the western culture but the situation is different. In the US the iPhone is not a status symbol, because even with a low wage you’ll be able to easily get one with a cellphone contract.

But, I don’t think that first world people is “moving past” status symbols, they have others: Food, what you eat tells a lot about your status — you can see that all the time in the Bay Area. College, where you got your degree is another symbol of status. Hobbies, the more expensive —or extravagant— the better.

> however, I think that most of the people in western cultures are moving past this. The materialistic part. Most would not care about clothes or the phone you own. What matters is personality and what you believe in.

A beautifully naive and disconnected perspective. Why do you think Instagram or Snapchat or even Facebook are so popular? A good part of it is to show off conspicuous consumption.

If anything, now that they can afford it a bit more, people are even more vain.

Maybe it's just me and my social circle, but showing off richness is considered tasteless. Of course, you'd have good clothes and other things, but they don't need to be of a famous brand or the most expensive ones. Of course, there are people like those that you've described. They are everywhere. It's just I feel like in western culture, the US and Europe, it is less.

Even there, you still see it, you just have to look carefully. Nobody buys $5k watches and suits because they're more durable.

Oh man, wait until someone chimes in saying they buy Rolexes because they have absolutely superior timekeeping. Which sure, they do, but that's definitely not a reason why people buy them.

I'll be honest and say that I don't know if Rolexes are mechanical. If they are, a quartz $20 Casio is more precise :-)

>I understand that concept somewhat, however, I think that most of the people in western cultures are moving past this. The materialistic part.

Citation needed. So far from my point of observation the desire to obtain prestige items, get prestige credentials and live in prestige places has not subsided substantially.

What you describe is known as 'give face'. I'm white, but my ex is chinese and so i have spent a lot of time in those circles and what you write is pretty accurate.

I knew a girl, who had a minimum wage job, but bought her boyfriend a $300 sweater simply to show his parents she had money.. I asked about it, and she pretty much told me it came down to "give face".

i think it is this: "面子" and as others have written, one of the more difficult concepts for western culture to fully understand.

Face is more related to honour, but its very hard to define.

I think giving a gift to prove to someone that your rich is not giving face (that would be if the gift is freely given without the intent of proving your wealth), but rather taking face or in western terms, showing disrespect.

I'd guess it might depend on whether you are in fact rich or not, and whether the gift is above or below the means of the gifted.

Seems like a bad thing either way, but for various reasons and (potentially) involved parties.

If social status is that important to someone then I think a second-hand genuine iPhone in decent nick would send a better message than a fake new one. Maybe even an old 6000 series Nokia. Like the person is more authentic and looks after their things, and only buys what they need. I could be wrong.

The people you're trying to impress often only get a quick preview into your life. You only get first impressions, and no opportunity to explain why your phone has nicks in it. (Think: business meetings.)

The people spend enough time around you to know that your phone, while looking a little beaten, is actually very reliable -- they don't care what kind of phone you have.

I think the film Parasite portrays the nuances of this kind of status quite well. (Even though the film is slightly comedic, I don't think the portrayal of status is exaggerated in the film.)

I think it also exists in western cultures, especially for immigrants. The way the immigrants (from poorer countries) dress, the phones they use etc can help locals differentiate between "good" immigrants and "bad" immigrants.

I was talking as a westerner, culturally. In fact I have relatives who lived in some considerable deprivation and what you say I recognise strongly. I can understand it in those cultures and in such situations I can imagine myself that way now you've raised it.

In the west I don't see nearly as much (well, I'm in the UK to be precise) and don't actually see it so much in others. But what I do see puzzles me.

But thanks for a solid perspective.

Social status is as much important and significant in the West as in other societies. Designer clothes, fancy cars, fancy watches are all used to signal that you belong (or you pretend to belong) to a certain social class, just like the way you talk or the way you behave.

As to why some people who clearly cannot afford these would buy counterfeit goods or (more frequently in the West, accumulate excessive debts to pay them), I assume there is the desire to belong (or appear to belong) to said social class, coupled with the fact that appearance very much matters in our society and people are judged every day based on their appearance rather than their skills or their characters. That judgment can result in better job, promotions, better sexual partner, better social accceptance.

Now, multiply that tenfold for poorer countries.

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