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Comment by dash2 | Hacker News Reader

Yes, but the media and the left also said that George W Bush was terrible.

Trump was different: he really did say outrageous things, like "hell, yeah we should torture them", or saying "Mexicans are rapists", or calling McCain a loser for being captured. Or think about his dismissal of Covid. That's not propaganda. Or his self-dealing in the White House. None of these things were invented.

There's a liberal mainstream establishment in the US, which will always want to bash conservatives. Trump presented a very large target to them. They quite fairly took aim at it.

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George W Bush started the Iraq war on a false pretext of lies and personal motives. I have no idea how you wouldn't say that's terrible.

That wasn't my point. My point was just that all presidents face attacks from the other side. Parent was talking as if Trump had been unfairly victimized.

Perhaps then the issue is you don't care that GWB started a war on false pretexts but other people do.

No, I care about that and indeed demonstrated against the Iraq war :-)

>They quite fairly took aim at it.

Not really. They twisted his words into the worse possible interpretation and then took aim at that. Like your Mexicans are rapists quote. That's not what he said. Here's the quote:

>The U.S. has become a dumping ground for everybody else's problems. Thank you. It's true, and these are the best and the finest. When Mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

You think his full quote that implies just _some_ Mexican-Americans and Mexicans living in America aren't rapists, drug dealers and criminals is acceptable? Or remotely factually accurate?

The above statement is indeed exemplary of Trump's racism, and is a better example than the distortions. Research has shown that illegal immigrants do not commit crimes at the same rate as the legal citizenry. You can argue that the research is not conclusive, but it establishes nonetheless that there is no evidence to believe illegal immigrants are crossing the border to perform crime sprees.

Thus, when Mexico 'sends' people across, they are, indeed, 'sending you', in that the crowd of presumably-legal Americans he's talking to are just as likely to have rapists among them as a group of illegal immigrants. He's playing on peoples' notion that it's self evident that a bunch of brown people crossing the border will be rabid criminals.

Sure, he's willing to downplay his beliefs to the press, but even mainstream Republicans found his retention of Stephen Miller in a primary influencer position to be abhorrent. If you aren't racist, you don't put a racist in charge of immigration.

>The above statement is indeed exemplary of Trump's racism, and is a better example than the distortions. Research has shown that illegal immigrants do not commit crimes at the same rate as the legal citizenry.

Illegal immigrants aren't a race so being anti-illegal immigrants isn't racism.

As to whether or not it's true there's evidence on both sides. Here is a good summary:

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/is-illegal-immigration-lin...

As I said, you can argue the research is not conclusive, and I have read the above article. Pulling demographic data like that is challenging and we should all take it with grains of salt.

But you and I are not having the same type of argument that Trump is having. You are taking a reasoned and skeptical position. Trump is not. Trump is not going in front of his rallies and saying, "While the evidence doesn't yet support it, I believe for this and that reason that Mexico is sending rapists and such across the border." As far as Trump is concerned, no research is required. He already somehow knows, and he knows with such certainty that he will happily make unmoderated statements to thousands of people, over and over. To him it is self evident that the Mexican illegal immigrants are largely rapists and assaultive criminals. If he paid attention to the same evidence you do, he would moderate his statements--which he does not.

That fundamental disconnect with factual or consensual reality is why I find Trump abhorrent.

Well we sure have traveled quite a ways from Trump called Mexicans rapists. Which I think proves my initial point.

How is the full quote any better than the summary?

Those things you have in quotes are not actual quotes.

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